3 ms·

Tell that to anyone who can barely get past the Ubuntu installer. Every step making installing alternative OSes harder is newsworthy, for the simple reason that

by l0b0 4y ago

Tell that to anyone who can barely get past the Ubuntu installer. Every step making installing alternative OSes harder is newsworthy, for the simple reason that every bit more difficult installation means literally fewer users capable of getting through it.

ChildOfChaos 4y ago
But is there any other OS for your average user? Linux is not an OS for the average user, it's for tech savvy geeks and an extremely small subset of those people too. Nothing wrong with what Lenovo is doing here, there just are no other OS in the market.
- 13415 4y ago
  First of all, this is not true. Anybody can install a distro like Linux Mint or Ubuntu, it doesn't require any tech knowledge. Many Linux distros are perfectly fine for the average user. Second, requiring complicated BIOS changes constitutes an artificial hurdle for any Linux distro to be easily installed by an average user. So even if you were right, the measure would also ensure that future versions of Linux that are decidedly more beginner-friendly would be prevented from being installed, creating an artificial, anti-competitive barrier. In a nutshell, this is bad no matter how you look at it.
  - ShamelessC 4y ago
    I think you drastically over estimate the average user.
  - pas 4y ago
    > Anybody can install a distro like Linux Mint or Ubuntu, it doesn't require any tech knowledge. What you think as "not tech knowledge" is a serious skill that is severely lacking in billions of people. The user needs the install medium, they need to get it, download it, create it, get a USB or blank CD/DVD, etc. They need to either have the courage (or curiosity or aloofness or determination) to modify their computer on such a drastic level, they need to understand abstract concepts, follow a written manual that uses those concepts, they need to recognize those abstract concepts as they are implemented on the computer they are currently tinkering with, and so on, and so on. > In a nutshell, this is bad no matter how you look at it. True, but it's bad because the whole "personal computing" thing is bad. This detail is largely irrelevant.
- justinpombrio 4y ago
  > Linux is not an OS for the average user, it's for tech savvy geeks and an extremely small subset of those people too. I recently installed Linux Mint and Windows 10. Linux was faster and easier to install, and has a friendlier UI. Have you seen the Windows start menu recently? It's cluttered with crap: I couldn't figure out how to do basic things with it, even searching was hard. You might do everything through the command line, but that's not the only way, the GUI does work. Software's a different story, though a lot of things are online these days.
  - bj-rn 4y ago
    I have to use Windows for work. One of the first things I always do is to install Open-Shell-Menu: https://open-shell.github.io/Open-Shell-Menu https://open-shell.github.io/Open-Shell-Menu
- kmacdough 4y ago
  WYM, it's for tech savvy geeks, and also tech curious teens and also parents who refuse to upgrade a machine that's not capable of running newer Windows versions and also for... I was 12 when I first installed linux and barely knew what I was doing. I easily would have given up if I couldn't figure out that my machine had a secret hidden bios setting. I learned a ton from that experience, that easily could have been missed if I'd happened to own one of these anti-competitive machines. Installing a user-friendly linux distro has gotten quite simple too, requiring only a couple simple steps using some clean tools. Modifying hidden BIOS settings is a significantly more complicated leap than the plug-and-play imaging tools available today.
- l0b0 4y ago
  Ubuntu is certainly for the average user. I just installed 22.04 on my mum's ancient laptop after she's been complaining for years about it being too slow to use. No tech support so far, and she says it's blazing fast compared to the old Win10 installation. She's used Windows since the 3.11 days, so finding the "start" menu and a browser must've been a cinch. GNOME is probably less of a UI shock than Win10 was. Asking her to install Ubuntu herself, though, would be another matter entirely. Installing any OS (including Windows, since it's about as complex as Ubuntu these days) is way beyond the skill level needed to actually use it.
  - ChildOfChaos 4y ago
    Ahh huh Only on hacker news would people be so far removed from real life that they would say 'Ubuntu is for the average user' And as you said, most people would not be able to install it let alone the fact they likely have no idea what it is, so in relation to this post about consumer lenovo laptops, it's irrelevant and doesn't matter to the vast vast majority of people.
    - em-bee 4y ago
      most people would not be able to install windows either. the average user does not install operating systems. linux is perfectly fine for the average user if it comes preinstalled.
015a 4y ago
But I think that's... valid? Like, if you're a person able to install (and use) a typical linux distro, on a totally open and free-range PC, then you're near-definitely also a person who knows how to use the BIOS. You were probably already in there switching the default boot device. That is, of course, assuming there is a BIOS option to disable it, which hasn't been confirmed or denied. The reality is: installing a replacement OS post-sale is never, ever going to be the way to grow linux marketshare, if that's what you care about (it shouldn't be, but some people live-and-breathe year of the linux desktop so whatever, you do you). Its a lot more important that it ship with the hardware, and extreme attention to detail has gone into making sure it works well with that hardware. Certainly, some vendors already do this. Moreover, I'd also argue its even more important that that hardware be modern and desirable; the only vendor I've seen pull this off is Dell (genuinely sorry, because I love what Framework/System76 are doing, but their machines look like branded OEM Clevos, because they probably are, or were in the recent past. I support them; I own a Framework; but only because I want them to do better, not because what they're doing today is enough).
- l0b0 4y ago
  What I'm saying is that installing an alternative OS should be as simple as plug in the USB stick, reboot, select "bloody well install this", enter your username and password, done. OEMs, with pressure from Microsoft, are making this harder every year. Of course OEM install is the gold standard, but I suspect we're ~[MS budget]/[all Linux businesses combined budget] years away from that. In the meantime, let's move on from 90s UX[1] and actually make the process easy on users. [1] UEFI GUIs are an improvement, but they still have 95% of the same usability issues of text-based BIOS: 1000+ settings with no hint what each of them means, XTLAs only understandable by hardware+kernel experts, unfamiliar interaction patterns like not having a big friendly button to just save and reboot, and so on.
  - em-bee 4y ago
    a better solution would be to force vendors to have both OS preinstalled, and allow users to choose the default at boot, like the EU did with browsers some time ago.

by l0b0 4y ago

ChildOfChaos 4y ago

But is there any other OS for your average user? Linux is not an OS for the average user, it's for tech savvy geeks and an extremely small subset of those people too. Nothing wrong with what Lenovo is doing here, there just are no other OS in the market.

13415 4y ago
First of all, this is not true. Anybody can install a distro like Linux Mint or Ubuntu, it doesn't require any tech knowledge. Many Linux distros are perfectly fine for the average user. Second, requiring complicated BIOS changes constitutes an artificial hurdle for any Linux distro to be easily installed by an average user. So even if you were right, the measure would also ensure that future versions of Linux that are decidedly more beginner-friendly would be prevented from being installed, creating an artificial, anti-competitive barrier. In a nutshell, this is bad no matter how you look at it.
- ShamelessC 4y ago
  I think you drastically over estimate the average user.
- pas 4y ago
  > Anybody can install a distro like Linux Mint or Ubuntu, it doesn't require any tech knowledge. What you think as "not tech knowledge" is a serious skill that is severely lacking in billions of people. The user needs the install medium, they need to get it, download it, create it, get a USB or blank CD/DVD, etc. They need to either have the courage (or curiosity or aloofness or determination) to modify their computer on such a drastic level, they need to understand abstract concepts, follow a written manual that uses those concepts, they need to recognize those abstract concepts as they are implemented on the computer they are currently tinkering with, and so on, and so on. > In a nutshell, this is bad no matter how you look at it. True, but it's bad because the whole "personal computing" thing is bad. This detail is largely irrelevant.
justinpombrio 4y ago
> Linux is not an OS for the average user, it's for tech savvy geeks and an extremely small subset of those people too. I recently installed Linux Mint and Windows 10. Linux was faster and easier to install, and has a friendlier UI. Have you seen the Windows start menu recently? It's cluttered with crap: I couldn't figure out how to do basic things with it, even searching was hard. You might do everything through the command line, but that's not the only way, the GUI does work. Software's a different story, though a lot of things are online these days.
- bj-rn 4y ago
  I have to use Windows for work. One of the first things I always do is to install Open-Shell-Menu: https://open-shell.github.io/Open-Shell-Menu https://open-shell.github.io/Open-Shell-Menu
kmacdough 4y ago
WYM, it's for tech savvy geeks, and also tech curious teens and also parents who refuse to upgrade a machine that's not capable of running newer Windows versions and also for... I was 12 when I first installed linux and barely knew what I was doing. I easily would have given up if I couldn't figure out that my machine had a secret hidden bios setting. I learned a ton from that experience, that easily could have been missed if I'd happened to own one of these anti-competitive machines. Installing a user-friendly linux distro has gotten quite simple too, requiring only a couple simple steps using some clean tools. Modifying hidden BIOS settings is a significantly more complicated leap than the plug-and-play imaging tools available today.
l0b0 4y ago
Ubuntu is certainly for the average user. I just installed 22.04 on my mum's ancient laptop after she's been complaining for years about it being too slow to use. No tech support so far, and she says it's blazing fast compared to the old Win10 installation. She's used Windows since the 3.11 days, so finding the "start" menu and a browser must've been a cinch. GNOME is probably less of a UI shock than Win10 was. Asking her to install Ubuntu herself, though, would be another matter entirely. Installing any OS (including Windows, since it's about as complex as Ubuntu these days) is way beyond the skill level needed to actually use it.
- ChildOfChaos 4y ago
  Ahh huh Only on hacker news would people be so far removed from real life that they would say 'Ubuntu is for the average user' And as you said, most people would not be able to install it let alone the fact they likely have no idea what it is, so in relation to this post about consumer lenovo laptops, it's irrelevant and doesn't matter to the vast vast majority of people.
  - em-bee 4y ago
    most people would not be able to install windows either. the average user does not install operating systems. linux is perfectly fine for the average user if it comes preinstalled.

015a 4y ago

But I think that's... valid? Like, if you're a person able to install (and use) a typical linux distro, on a totally open and free-range PC, then you're near-definitely also a person who knows how to use the BIOS. You were probably already in there switching the default boot device. That is, of course, assuming there is a BIOS option to disable it, which hasn't been confirmed or denied. The reality is: installing a replacement OS post-sale is never, ever going to be the way to grow linux marketshare, if that's what you care about (it shouldn't be, but some people live-and-breathe year of the linux desktop so whatever, you do you). Its a lot more important that it ship with the hardware, and extreme attention to detail has gone into making sure it works well with that hardware. Certainly, some vendors already do this. Moreover, I'd also argue its even more important that that hardware be modern and desirable; the only vendor I've seen pull this off is Dell (genuinely sorry, because I love what Framework/System76 are doing, but their machines look like branded OEM Clevos, because they probably are, or were in the recent past. I support them; I own a Framework; but only because I want them to do better, not because what they're doing today is enough).

l0b0 4y ago
What I'm saying is that installing an alternative OS should be as simple as plug in the USB stick, reboot, select "bloody well install this", enter your username and password, done. OEMs, with pressure from Microsoft, are making this harder every year. Of course OEM install is the gold standard, but I suspect we're ~[MS budget]/[all Linux businesses combined budget] years away from that. In the meantime, let's move on from 90s UX[1] and actually make the process easy on users. [1] UEFI GUIs are an improvement, but they still have 95% of the same usability issues of text-based BIOS: 1000+ settings with no hint what each of them means, XTLAs only understandable by hardware+kernel experts, unfamiliar interaction patterns like not having a big friendly button to just save and reboot, and so on.
- em-bee 4y ago
  a better solution would be to force vendors to have both OS preinstalled, and allow users to choose the default at boot, like the EU did with browsers some time ago.