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None of the Chinese people I know, love the CCP. They may have an opinion on whether China is well-governed but for the most part they don't care who's in charg

None of the Chinese people I know, love the CCP. They may have an opinion on whether China is well-governed but for the most part they don't care who's in charge as long as they do a good job. Agreed with your notion so far. But that notion doesn't go very far, because a large part of that notion is detached from the reality of how that notion is abused. 9 out of 10 people that I've met spout the "love Chinese people hate CCP" line, only to continue with spouting borderline racist stuff like "Chinese can't innovate/steal our tech" or "why do so many diseases come from China". Furthermore, "hating the CCP" in practice translates to actions that harm not only the CCP, but also the Chinese people as a whole, and most people have absolutely no problem with that. Chinese people are considered a sacrificial pawn who should gladly offer themselves up for the noble fight against the CCP. People slap the "CCP spy" label on Chinese scientists, engineers, students, etc, completely without proof, and voila — you now have a justification to attack Chinese people behind a fascade of "standing up against the CCP". The pro-China people that I know here get angry whenever they see another article that claims that China is performing $HUMAN_RIGHTS_ABUSE. They don't care about CCP specifically, but many such allegations merely pay lip service to the notion that they're only attacking the CCP. If you look past the fascade then in practice they're attacking China and the Chinese people, because such accusations are used to justify sanctions against China, Chinese companies, entire Chinese provinces, depriving normal people of their livelihood, all with either very little proof or very misrepresented facts.

throwaway290 4y ago
am intimately familiar with the same dynamic regarding Russia recently. What you are saying is basically the same as saying war in Ukraine and oligarch money laundering merely justifies sanctions against ordinary Russians, Russian companies, depriving normal people of their livelihood, blahblah. No. They are kleptocrats, both Xi and Putin, using violence against own people and posing tangible threats to free societies elsewhere. If you want to alleviate those threats yea unfortunately ordinary people will get affected, no way around it. They can revolt but they won't. I know first hand how many people in Russia support Putin because they enjoy a nice lower-middle-class lifestyle now, incomparable to miserable lives of their parents. They thank Putin for that obviously. What's important to remember is that it does not make them bad people, same as supporting Xi doesn't make Chinese bad people. The support is a consequence of propaganda, lack of education and so on, which is not individual's fault. If they are hurt economically, it's not because they are the ones targeted.
- FooBarWidget 4y ago
  I don't know much about Russia so I won't comment on that. However I am skeptical about any comparisons people make between China and Russia. China and Russia are very different. People often make comparisons because they're just projecting, assuming that just because both have the reputation of being "authoritarian" that reasoning applied to Russia can be transferred to China. So not commenting on Putin. But saying that Xi is a kleptocrat is 1) an opinion, and 2) doesn't match the reality of many opinions in China and why people have that opinion, and 3) doesn't match the actual facts of how he came to power or what he does on a daily basis (as opposed to MSM representation of his persona). That is not helpful for a fact-based discussion. If the Chinese govt screws up badly enough, there will be a revolt. It has happened tons of times in the past 2000 years and it will happen again. You attribute Chinese opinion too much to propaganda. Many who cross over the firewall are disillusioned: they assumed that China is full of propaganda and that the west is a beacon of truth and free speech, only to find out that western media lies a lot about China and that Chinese media has been more truthful than they thought. Chinese opinion about things are also far more nuanced than you give it credit for. Don't just copy-paste your assumptions about Russia onto China. China deserves to be analyzed on its own, using non-western paradigms.
  - throwaway290 4y ago
    You seem to be a good example of someone supporting Xi as suggested in the beginning of this thread
    - FooBarWidget 4y ago
      It's entirely possible to oppose unfair characterizations of China and its system, and to recognize that the current government is on a whole doing a good job, without being supportive of (nor being opposed to) Xi specifically.
strogonoff 4y ago
It’s not about “love”. (Few people in respective countries love Biden or Boris Johnson either.) There is popular support for the government (that means, people are not looking to reelect or overthrow the government) because people think the government did good (a.k.a. did not screw up enough). But the government may have, in fact, screwed up; it just successfully manipulated popular opinion and benefitted from economic context. It has also screwed up in the most fundamental way, by preventing people from peacefully replacing it (meaning the first key objective of any of its policies is to ensure it maintains power). You fail to recognize your life may have improved despite the policies, not necessarily thanks to them; meanwhile, those policies may have degraded individual moral values such that the only thing keeping the country from descending into chaos is total surveillance, all the while benefiting the ruling elites.
- FooBarWidget 4y ago
  Agreed with the first part about love and what popular support means. That was also my point. As for the rest: what is the point of what you say? "May" have successfully brainwashed people. "May" have had nothing to do with successes. Even if those are true, what do they have to do with the point of whether Chinese people fear speaking up? Their truthiness don't negate the fact that anti-CCP sentiment is being actively hijacked to attack China and its people, and few people seem to care despite putting up a fascade of "loving the Chinese people and only hating the CCP". That is one of my major grievances about China discussions.
  - strogonoff 4y ago
    > what is the point of what you say? Same point as it was in my original comment. If X was in charge during a good trend, it’s a human fallacy to post-rationalise the past as if the good trend was happening because of X being in charge (and even turn X’s downsides into X’s benefits), even if the good trend happened despite X being in charge. That’s how many Xs stay in charge while being objectively unworthy of it; especially those Xs that can use a combination of force and politics play. Regarding “loving Chinese people and hating the CCP”, I am disinclined to blame the Chinese people, much like I am disinclined to blame the Russian people—they are bombarded with misinformation from young age and are given limited individual choice. (Also one of the reasons I’m inclined to blame the respective regimes.)

throwaway290 4y ago

am intimately familiar with the same dynamic regarding Russia recently. What you are saying is basically the same as saying war in Ukraine and oligarch money laundering merely justifies sanctions against ordinary Russians, Russian companies, depriving normal people of their livelihood, blahblah. No. They are kleptocrats, both Xi and Putin, using violence against own people and posing tangible threats to free societies elsewhere. If you want to alleviate those threats yea unfortunately ordinary people will get affected, no way around it. They can revolt but they won't. I know first hand how many people in Russia support Putin because they enjoy a nice lower-middle-class lifestyle now, incomparable to miserable lives of their parents. They thank Putin for that obviously. What's important to remember is that it does not make them bad people, same as supporting Xi doesn't make Chinese bad people. The support is a consequence of propaganda, lack of education and so on, which is not individual's fault. If they are hurt economically, it's not because they are the ones targeted.

FooBarWidget 4y ago
I don't know much about Russia so I won't comment on that. However I am skeptical about any comparisons people make between China and Russia. China and Russia are very different. People often make comparisons because they're just projecting, assuming that just because both have the reputation of being "authoritarian" that reasoning applied to Russia can be transferred to China. So not commenting on Putin. But saying that Xi is a kleptocrat is 1) an opinion, and 2) doesn't match the reality of many opinions in China and why people have that opinion, and 3) doesn't match the actual facts of how he came to power or what he does on a daily basis (as opposed to MSM representation of his persona). That is not helpful for a fact-based discussion. If the Chinese govt screws up badly enough, there will be a revolt. It has happened tons of times in the past 2000 years and it will happen again. You attribute Chinese opinion too much to propaganda. Many who cross over the firewall are disillusioned: they assumed that China is full of propaganda and that the west is a beacon of truth and free speech, only to find out that western media lies a lot about China and that Chinese media has been more truthful than they thought. Chinese opinion about things are also far more nuanced than you give it credit for. Don't just copy-paste your assumptions about Russia onto China. China deserves to be analyzed on its own, using non-western paradigms.
- throwaway290 4y ago
  You seem to be a good example of someone supporting Xi as suggested in the beginning of this thread
  - FooBarWidget 4y ago
    It's entirely possible to oppose unfair characterizations of China and its system, and to recognize that the current government is on a whole doing a good job, without being supportive of (nor being opposed to) Xi specifically.

strogonoff 4y ago

It’s not about “love”. (Few people in respective countries love Biden or Boris Johnson either.) There is popular support for the government (that means, people are not looking to reelect or overthrow the government) because people think the government did good (a.k.a. did not screw up enough). But the government may have, in fact, screwed up; it just successfully manipulated popular opinion and benefitted from economic context. It has also screwed up in the most fundamental way, by preventing people from peacefully replacing it (meaning the first key objective of any of its policies is to ensure it maintains power). You fail to recognize your life may have improved despite the policies, not necessarily thanks to them; meanwhile, those policies may have degraded individual moral values such that the only thing keeping the country from descending into chaos is total surveillance, all the while benefiting the ruling elites.

FooBarWidget 4y ago
Agreed with the first part about love and what popular support means. That was also my point. As for the rest: what is the point of what you say? "May" have successfully brainwashed people. "May" have had nothing to do with successes. Even if those are true, what do they have to do with the point of whether Chinese people fear speaking up? Their truthiness don't negate the fact that anti-CCP sentiment is being actively hijacked to attack China and its people, and few people seem to care despite putting up a fascade of "loving the Chinese people and only hating the CCP". That is one of my major grievances about China discussions.
- strogonoff 4y ago
  > what is the point of what you say? Same point as it was in my original comment. If X was in charge during a good trend, it’s a human fallacy to post-rationalise the past as if the good trend was happening because of X being in charge (and even turn X’s downsides into X’s benefits), even if the good trend happened despite X being in charge. That’s how many Xs stay in charge while being objectively unworthy of it; especially those Xs that can use a combination of force and politics play. Regarding “loving Chinese people and hating the CCP”, I am disinclined to blame the Chinese people, much like I am disinclined to blame the Russian people—they are bombarded with misinformation from young age and are given limited individual choice. (Also one of the reasons I’m inclined to blame the respective regimes.)