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I'm Chinese and I'll have to disagree with the idea that Chinese "fear speaking up". That is a stereotype. China isn't that sort of place. There are 500 protest

I'm Chinese and I'll have to disagree with the idea that Chinese "fear speaking up". That is a stereotype. China isn't that sort of place. There are 500 protests a day — not to overthrow the government, but to ask them to do better or to address grievances. Criticisms are all over the place if you look online. Most likely you were just in a community with people who are unhappy about China. I live in Netherlands and most Chinese here (specifically: those who came from the mainland) are supportive of China. Those from Taiwan or who were born here are a mixed bag.

philliphaydon 4y ago
> I live in Netherlands and most Chinese here (specifically: those who came from the mainland) are supportive of China. I don't think I've met a person in Singapore who wasn't supportive of China. They all love their country, and why wouldn't they, beautiful country, people, food, culture. But what I said was they don't like the CCP. You can hate the CCP and still love China.
- FooBarWidget 4y ago
  None of the Chinese people I know, love the CCP. They may have an opinion on whether China is well-governed but for the most part they don't care who's in charge as long as they do a good job. Agreed with your notion so far. But that notion doesn't go very far, because a large part of that notion is detached from the reality of how that notion is abused. 9 out of 10 people that I've met spout the "love Chinese people hate CCP" line, only to continue with spouting borderline racist stuff like "Chinese can't innovate/steal our tech" or "why do so many diseases come from China". Furthermore, "hating the CCP" in practice translates to actions that harm not only the CCP, but also the Chinese people as a whole, and most people have absolutely no problem with that. Chinese people are considered a sacrificial pawn who should gladly offer themselves up for the noble fight against the CCP. People slap the "CCP spy" label on Chinese scientists, engineers, students, etc, completely without proof, and voila — you now have a justification to attack Chinese people behind a fascade of "standing up against the CCP". The pro-China people that I know here get angry whenever they see another article that claims that China is performing $HUMAN_RIGHTS_ABUSE. They don't care about CCP specifically, but many such allegations merely pay lip service to the notion that they're only attacking the CCP. If you look past the fascade then in practice they're attacking China and the Chinese people, because such accusations are used to justify sanctions against China, Chinese companies, entire Chinese provinces, depriving normal people of their livelihood, all with either very little proof or very misrepresented facts.
  - throwaway290 4y ago
    am intimately familiar with the same dynamic regarding Russia recently. What you are saying is basically the same as saying war in Ukraine and oligarch money laundering merely justifies sanctions against ordinary Russians, Russian companies, depriving normal people of their livelihood, blahblah. No. They are kleptocrats, both Xi and Putin, using violence against own people and posing tangible threats to free societies elsewhere. If you want to alleviate those threats yea unfortunately ordinary people will get affected, no way around it. They can revolt but they won't. I know first hand how many people in Russia support Putin because they enjoy a nice lower-middle-class lifestyle now, incomparable to miserable lives of their parents. They thank Putin for that obviously. What's important to remember is that it does not make them bad people, same as supporting Xi doesn't make Chinese bad people. The support is a consequence of propaganda, lack of education and so on, which is not individual's fault. If they are hurt economically, it's not because they are the ones targeted.
    - FooBarWidget 4y ago
      I don't know much about Russia so I won't comment on that. However I am skeptical about any comparisons people make between China and Russia. China and Russia are very different. People often make comparisons because they're just projecting, assuming that just because both have the reputation of being "authoritarian" that reasoning applied to Russia can be transferred to China. So not commenting on Putin. But saying that Xi is a kleptocrat is 1) an opinion, and 2) doesn't match the reality of many opinions in China and why people have that opinion, and 3) doesn't match the actual facts of how he came to power or what he does on a daily basis (as opposed to MSM representation of his persona). That is not helpful for a fact-based discussion. If the Chinese govt screws up badly enough, there will be a revolt. It has happened tons of times in the past 2000 years and it will happen again. You attribute Chinese opinion too much to propaganda. Many who cross over the firewall are disillusioned: they assumed that China is full of propaganda and that the west is a beacon of truth and free speech, only to find out that western media lies a lot about China and that Chinese media has been more truthful than they thought. Chinese opinion about things are also far more nuanced than you give it credit for. Don't just copy-paste your assumptions about Russia onto China. China deserves to be analyzed on its own, using non-western paradigms.

philliphaydon 4y ago

> I live in Netherlands and most Chinese here (specifically: those who came from the mainland) are supportive of China. I don't think I've met a person in Singapore who wasn't supportive of China. They all love their country, and why wouldn't they, beautiful country, people, food, culture. But what I said was they don't like the CCP. You can hate the CCP and still love China.

FooBarWidget 4y ago
None of the Chinese people I know, love the CCP. They may have an opinion on whether China is well-governed but for the most part they don't care who's in charge as long as they do a good job. Agreed with your notion so far. But that notion doesn't go very far, because a large part of that notion is detached from the reality of how that notion is abused. 9 out of 10 people that I've met spout the "love Chinese people hate CCP" line, only to continue with spouting borderline racist stuff like "Chinese can't innovate/steal our tech" or "why do so many diseases come from China". Furthermore, "hating the CCP" in practice translates to actions that harm not only the CCP, but also the Chinese people as a whole, and most people have absolutely no problem with that. Chinese people are considered a sacrificial pawn who should gladly offer themselves up for the noble fight against the CCP. People slap the "CCP spy" label on Chinese scientists, engineers, students, etc, completely without proof, and voila — you now have a justification to attack Chinese people behind a fascade of "standing up against the CCP". The pro-China people that I know here get angry whenever they see another article that claims that China is performing $HUMAN_RIGHTS_ABUSE. They don't care about CCP specifically, but many such allegations merely pay lip service to the notion that they're only attacking the CCP. If you look past the fascade then in practice they're attacking China and the Chinese people, because such accusations are used to justify sanctions against China, Chinese companies, entire Chinese provinces, depriving normal people of their livelihood, all with either very little proof or very misrepresented facts.
- throwaway290 4y ago
  am intimately familiar with the same dynamic regarding Russia recently. What you are saying is basically the same as saying war in Ukraine and oligarch money laundering merely justifies sanctions against ordinary Russians, Russian companies, depriving normal people of their livelihood, blahblah. No. They are kleptocrats, both Xi and Putin, using violence against own people and posing tangible threats to free societies elsewhere. If you want to alleviate those threats yea unfortunately ordinary people will get affected, no way around it. They can revolt but they won't. I know first hand how many people in Russia support Putin because they enjoy a nice lower-middle-class lifestyle now, incomparable to miserable lives of their parents. They thank Putin for that obviously. What's important to remember is that it does not make them bad people, same as supporting Xi doesn't make Chinese bad people. The support is a consequence of propaganda, lack of education and so on, which is not individual's fault. If they are hurt economically, it's not because they are the ones targeted.
  - FooBarWidget 4y ago
    I don't know much about Russia so I won't comment on that. However I am skeptical about any comparisons people make between China and Russia. China and Russia are very different. People often make comparisons because they're just projecting, assuming that just because both have the reputation of being "authoritarian" that reasoning applied to Russia can be transferred to China. So not commenting on Putin. But saying that Xi is a kleptocrat is 1) an opinion, and 2) doesn't match the reality of many opinions in China and why people have that opinion, and 3) doesn't match the actual facts of how he came to power or what he does on a daily basis (as opposed to MSM representation of his persona). That is not helpful for a fact-based discussion. If the Chinese govt screws up badly enough, there will be a revolt. It has happened tons of times in the past 2000 years and it will happen again. You attribute Chinese opinion too much to propaganda. Many who cross over the firewall are disillusioned: they assumed that China is full of propaganda and that the west is a beacon of truth and free speech, only to find out that western media lies a lot about China and that Chinese media has been more truthful than they thought. Chinese opinion about things are also far more nuanced than you give it credit for. Don't just copy-paste your assumptions about Russia onto China. China deserves to be analyzed on its own, using non-western paradigms.