6 ms·

> This is why, for example, CCP and Putin enjoy popular support: if people’s quality of life has improved, they must be onto something! We /assume/ they have p

> This is why, for example, CCP and Putin enjoy popular support: if people’s quality of life has improved, they must be onto something! We /assume/ they have popular support, in reality we don't really know.

strogonoff 4y ago
It’s true that in one case there’s no elections and in the other case the elections are most likely rigged, so it’s hard to know for sure. I base this on discussions I had with people from both countries (numerous in real life, as well as some online, including here), there are enough anecdata points for me to form this opinion.
- philliphaydon 4y ago
  I just moved to Taiwan after spending 10 years living in Singapore. I've not met a single person from China in Singapore who liked the CCP. I can't comment on Russia because I honestly don't think I've met anyone in person from Russia. I wouldn't take online as an indication of anything tho as people from China always say in person they would never admit out loud because they fear for their family.
  - FooBarWidget 4y ago
    I'm Chinese and I'll have to disagree with the idea that Chinese "fear speaking up". That is a stereotype. China isn't that sort of place. There are 500 protests a day — not to overthrow the government, but to ask them to do better or to address grievances. Criticisms are all over the place if you look online. Most likely you were just in a community with people who are unhappy about China. I live in Netherlands and most Chinese here (specifically: those who came from the mainland) are supportive of China. Those from Taiwan or who were born here are a mixed bag.
    - philliphaydon 4y ago
      > I live in Netherlands and most Chinese here (specifically: those who came from the mainland) are supportive of China. I don't think I've met a person in Singapore who wasn't supportive of China. They all love their country, and why wouldn't they, beautiful country, people, food, culture. But what I said was they don't like the CCP. You can hate the CCP and still love China.
      - FooBarWidget 4y ago
        None of the Chinese people I know, love the CCP. They may have an opinion on whether China is well-governed but for the most part they don't care who's in charge as long as they do a good job. Agreed with your notion so far. But that notion doesn't go very far, because a large part of that notion is detached from the reality of how that notion is abused. 9 out of 10 people that I've met spout the "love Chinese people hate CCP" line, only to continue with spouting borderline racist stuff like "Chinese can't innovate/steal our tech" or "why do so many diseases come from China". Furthermore, "hating the CCP" in practice translates to actions that harm not only the CCP, but also the Chinese people as a whole, and most people have absolutely no problem with that. Chinese people are considered a sacrificial pawn who should gladly offer themselves up for the noble fight against the CCP. People slap the "CCP spy" label on Chinese scientists, engineers, students, etc, completely without proof, and voila — you now have a justification to attack Chinese people behind a fascade of "standing up against the CCP". The pro-China people that I know here get angry whenever they see another article that claims that China is performing $HUMAN_RIGHTS_ABUSE. They don't care about CCP specifically, but many such allegations merely pay lip service to the notion that they're only attacking the CCP. If you look past the fascade then in practice they're attacking China and the Chinese people, because such accusations are used to justify sanctions against China, Chinese companies, entire Chinese provinces, depriving normal people of their livelihood, all with either very little proof or very misrepresented facts.
        throwaway290 4y ago
        am intimately familiar with the same dynamic regarding Russia recently. What you are saying is basically the same as saying war in Ukraine and oligarch money laundering merely justifies sanctions against ordinary Russians, Russian companies, depriving normal people of their livelihood, blahblah. No. They are kleptocrats, both Xi and Putin, using violence against own people and posing tangible threats to free societies elsewhere. If you want to alleviate those threats yea unfortunately ordinary people will get affected, no way around it. They can revolt but they won't. I know first hand how many people in Russia support Putin because they enjoy a nice lower-middle-class lifestyle now, incomparable to miserable lives of their parents. They thank Putin for that obviously. What's important to remember is that it does not make them bad people, same as supporting Xi doesn't make Chinese bad people. The support is a consequence of propaganda, lack of education and so on, which is not individual's fault. If they are hurt economically, it's not because they are the ones targeted.
  - strogonoff 4y ago
    Yes, people who like them outside of their respective bubbles of influence are far and between. Maybe I should have phrased it more precisely…
- FooBarWidget 4y ago
  You don't even need anecdotes, there are western researches that back up your hypothesis. See my other reply.
FooBarWidget 4y ago
We don't assume that at all. There are western researches that back this, such as this 15-year study by Harvard: https://ash.harvard.edu/files/ash/files/final_policy_brief_7.6.2020.pdf https://ash.harvard.edu/files/ash/files/final_policy_brief_7... If anything, the idea that either the Chinese population is unhappy and repressed, or that we can't possibly know what they think, that is an assumption. Or rather, an eternal myth perpetuated by undying stereotypes.
- philliphaydon 4y ago
  Sigh, I always see this argument peddled on twitter. https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-sur... > The work began in 2003, and together with a leading private research and polling company in China. Knowing that studies like this must have government oversight, and that study was performed by a company in China, can you really trust the data of the study? My point is that we really do not know what is happening in China because we have very little visibility in China. Everything is censored and the CCP tells us what they want us to think. Now the people could very well be happy, and love the CCP, and not be repressed. But in reality we literally have no idea because anytime anyone speaks out in China its censored.
  - FooBarWidget 4y ago
    And yet the protests inside China are very real. The criticisms online are very real. The fact that they change policies is very real. Censorship isn't omnipotent, China isn't North Korea. Or do you think every single Shanghai lockdown protester has been rounded up? Do you still remember the Evergrande protests? Are all those people in jail? The Harvard survey was anonymous. Or do you think they're lying and they secretly recorded every participant's personal information so that they can punish them to answering wrong? If so then why did 4% answer unsatisfied? Did they have a death wish? Have all those people been jailed? And why was satisfaction rate for lower governments much lower? Won't those people get into trouble with e.g. the local police department or the mayor?

strogonoff 4y ago

It’s true that in one case there’s no elections and in the other case the elections are most likely rigged, so it’s hard to know for sure. I base this on discussions I had with people from both countries (numerous in real life, as well as some online, including here), there are enough anecdata points for me to form this opinion.

philliphaydon 4y ago
I just moved to Taiwan after spending 10 years living in Singapore. I've not met a single person from China in Singapore who liked the CCP. I can't comment on Russia because I honestly don't think I've met anyone in person from Russia. I wouldn't take online as an indication of anything tho as people from China always say in person they would never admit out loud because they fear for their family.
- FooBarWidget 4y ago
  I'm Chinese and I'll have to disagree with the idea that Chinese "fear speaking up". That is a stereotype. China isn't that sort of place. There are 500 protests a day — not to overthrow the government, but to ask them to do better or to address grievances. Criticisms are all over the place if you look online. Most likely you were just in a community with people who are unhappy about China. I live in Netherlands and most Chinese here (specifically: those who came from the mainland) are supportive of China. Those from Taiwan or who were born here are a mixed bag.
  - philliphaydon 4y ago
    > I live in Netherlands and most Chinese here (specifically: those who came from the mainland) are supportive of China. I don't think I've met a person in Singapore who wasn't supportive of China. They all love their country, and why wouldn't they, beautiful country, people, food, culture. But what I said was they don't like the CCP. You can hate the CCP and still love China.
    - FooBarWidget 4y ago
      None of the Chinese people I know, love the CCP. They may have an opinion on whether China is well-governed but for the most part they don't care who's in charge as long as they do a good job. Agreed with your notion so far. But that notion doesn't go very far, because a large part of that notion is detached from the reality of how that notion is abused. 9 out of 10 people that I've met spout the "love Chinese people hate CCP" line, only to continue with spouting borderline racist stuff like "Chinese can't innovate/steal our tech" or "why do so many diseases come from China". Furthermore, "hating the CCP" in practice translates to actions that harm not only the CCP, but also the Chinese people as a whole, and most people have absolutely no problem with that. Chinese people are considered a sacrificial pawn who should gladly offer themselves up for the noble fight against the CCP. People slap the "CCP spy" label on Chinese scientists, engineers, students, etc, completely without proof, and voila — you now have a justification to attack Chinese people behind a fascade of "standing up against the CCP". The pro-China people that I know here get angry whenever they see another article that claims that China is performing $HUMAN_RIGHTS_ABUSE. They don't care about CCP specifically, but many such allegations merely pay lip service to the notion that they're only attacking the CCP. If you look past the fascade then in practice they're attacking China and the Chinese people, because such accusations are used to justify sanctions against China, Chinese companies, entire Chinese provinces, depriving normal people of their livelihood, all with either very little proof or very misrepresented facts.
      - throwaway290 4y ago
        am intimately familiar with the same dynamic regarding Russia recently. What you are saying is basically the same as saying war in Ukraine and oligarch money laundering merely justifies sanctions against ordinary Russians, Russian companies, depriving normal people of their livelihood, blahblah. No. They are kleptocrats, both Xi and Putin, using violence against own people and posing tangible threats to free societies elsewhere. If you want to alleviate those threats yea unfortunately ordinary people will get affected, no way around it. They can revolt but they won't. I know first hand how many people in Russia support Putin because they enjoy a nice lower-middle-class lifestyle now, incomparable to miserable lives of their parents. They thank Putin for that obviously. What's important to remember is that it does not make them bad people, same as supporting Xi doesn't make Chinese bad people. The support is a consequence of propaganda, lack of education and so on, which is not individual's fault. If they are hurt economically, it's not because they are the ones targeted.
- strogonoff 4y ago
  Yes, people who like them outside of their respective bubbles of influence are far and between. Maybe I should have phrased it more precisely…
FooBarWidget 4y ago
You don't even need anecdotes, there are western researches that back up your hypothesis. See my other reply.

FooBarWidget 4y ago

We don't assume that at all. There are western researches that back this, such as this 15-year study by Harvard: https://ash.harvard.edu/files/ash/files/final_policy_brief_7.6.2020.pdf https://ash.harvard.edu/files/ash/files/final_policy_brief_7... If anything, the idea that either the Chinese population is unhappy and repressed, or that we can't possibly know what they think, that is an assumption. Or rather, an eternal myth perpetuated by undying stereotypes.

philliphaydon 4y ago
Sigh, I always see this argument peddled on twitter. https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-sur... > The work began in 2003, and together with a leading private research and polling company in China. Knowing that studies like this must have government oversight, and that study was performed by a company in China, can you really trust the data of the study? My point is that we really do not know what is happening in China because we have very little visibility in China. Everything is censored and the CCP tells us what they want us to think. Now the people could very well be happy, and love the CCP, and not be repressed. But in reality we literally have no idea because anytime anyone speaks out in China its censored.
- FooBarWidget 4y ago
  And yet the protests inside China are very real. The criticisms online are very real. The fact that they change policies is very real. Censorship isn't omnipotent, China isn't North Korea. Or do you think every single Shanghai lockdown protester has been rounded up? Do you still remember the Evergrande protests? Are all those people in jail? The Harvard survey was anonymous. Or do you think they're lying and they secretly recorded every participant's personal information so that they can punish them to answering wrong? If so then why did 4% answer unsatisfied? Did they have a death wish? Have all those people been jailed? And why was satisfaction rate for lower governments much lower? Won't those people get into trouble with e.g. the local police department or the mayor?