5 ms·

Is there really no other way to go around demographic ratios except by importing young people? Why can't we make economy work with less working people per retir

Is there really no other way to go around demographic ratios except by importing young people? Why can't we make economy work with less working people per retiree?

tored 4y ago
There are other solutions of course, like automation. With technology we can do more work on less time, and that is something we have done since the industrial revolution. It is a bit bizarre that on technology forum this is not go-to answer.
- chaostheory 4y ago
  Because the technology is not ready yet
- gopher_space 4y ago
  > It is a bit bizarre that on technology forum this is not go-to answer. Automation is more likely to add rent-seeking to the status quo than improve conditions for society.
- failuser 4y ago
  Automation will put more money into the pockets of people who own the companies, IP and capital. Everyone else did not get much from it for a while and got more and more burden of education to work in that automated workplaces shifted on them.
usrn 4y ago
The economic problem Japan faces is temporary while the demographic change from immigration would be permanent. It makes sense that the Japanese are avoiding it.
neilwilson 4y ago
That would require productivity growth, which requires investment and training, rather than profit extraction from cash cows. The West has got very used to living off cash cows. The other option is to invest abroad, and repatriate the profit. Which is something else Japan has done, the Chinese are doing, and the West seems to have forgotten how to do.
- nemothekid 4y ago
  >The other option is to invest abroad, and repatriate the profit. In other words, colonialism. I wouldn't say the West "has forgotten"; they are still extremely good at it with careful financial engineering, they can operate it without looking like slave drivers. The problem is there is only so many places you can invest and the west has burned enough bridges where any sovereign nation is incredibly careful when taking money from the west.
andrekandre 4y ago
> Why can't we make economy work with less working people per retiree? we can make any kind of economy we want (its a human invention after all) which then makes the answer a lot more political (there are many intertwining interests that don't want/cant change)
- betwixthewires 4y ago
  Economics is not a human invention. It is a discovery, a study of the feedback mechanisms that lead to certain distributions of resources. When you pretend otherwise you get mass famine.
  - andrekandre 4y ago
    > It is a discovery, a study of the feedback mechanisms that lead to certain distributions of resources. and who makes those feedback mechanisms? are you saying that property rights and other rules of trade are not human inventions?
    - betwixthewires 4y ago
      They're naturally occurring. We usually try to create rules of trade and property rights that prevent things like famine and violent conflict. This is because certain sets of rules would inevitably lead to these things. What rules produce the most stability and health are not known, figuring those out is a process of discovery, it is not up to people which rules work and which rules don't because what actually works with regard to distribution of resources depends on how the natural world works.
      - andrekandre 4y ago
        > what actually works with regard to distribution of resources isnt economics much more than just distribution of resources? and distribution to what end? "what works" largely depends on what your trying to achieve, no? for example, we could say that china is doing economics much better than the west (growing faster, better infrastructure, better education, more dynamism etc), if you wanted to say "what works" but im not sure most people here would want to follow that path... i feel there is an inherent political aspect that arises in economics that is being ignored... but maybe im just crazy?

Is there really no other way to go around demographic ratios except by importing young people? Why can't we make economy work with less working people per retiree?

tored 4y ago

There are other solutions of course, like automation. With technology we can do more work on less time, and that is something we have done since the industrial revolution. It is a bit bizarre that on technology forum this is not go-to answer.

chaostheory 4y ago
Because the technology is not ready yet
gopher_space 4y ago
> It is a bit bizarre that on technology forum this is not go-to answer. Automation is more likely to add rent-seeking to the status quo than improve conditions for society.
failuser 4y ago
Automation will put more money into the pockets of people who own the companies, IP and capital. Everyone else did not get much from it for a while and got more and more burden of education to work in that automated workplaces shifted on them.

usrn 4y ago

The economic problem Japan faces is temporary while the demographic change from immigration would be permanent. It makes sense that the Japanese are avoiding it.

neilwilson 4y ago

That would require productivity growth, which requires investment and training, rather than profit extraction from cash cows. The West has got very used to living off cash cows. The other option is to invest abroad, and repatriate the profit. Which is something else Japan has done, the Chinese are doing, and the West seems to have forgotten how to do.

nemothekid 4y ago
>The other option is to invest abroad, and repatriate the profit. In other words, colonialism. I wouldn't say the West "has forgotten"; they are still extremely good at it with careful financial engineering, they can operate it without looking like slave drivers. The problem is there is only so many places you can invest and the west has burned enough bridges where any sovereign nation is incredibly careful when taking money from the west.

andrekandre 4y ago

> Why can't we make economy work with less working people per retiree? we can make any kind of economy we want (its a human invention after all) which then makes the answer a lot more political (there are many intertwining interests that don't want/cant change)

betwixthewires 4y ago
Economics is not a human invention. It is a discovery, a study of the feedback mechanisms that lead to certain distributions of resources. When you pretend otherwise you get mass famine.
- andrekandre 4y ago
  > It is a discovery, a study of the feedback mechanisms that lead to certain distributions of resources. and who makes those feedback mechanisms? are you saying that property rights and other rules of trade are not human inventions?
  - betwixthewires 4y ago
    They're naturally occurring. We usually try to create rules of trade and property rights that prevent things like famine and violent conflict. This is because certain sets of rules would inevitably lead to these things. What rules produce the most stability and health are not known, figuring those out is a process of discovery, it is not up to people which rules work and which rules don't because what actually works with regard to distribution of resources depends on how the natural world works.
    - andrekandre 4y ago
      > what actually works with regard to distribution of resources isnt economics much more than just distribution of resources? and distribution to what end? "what works" largely depends on what your trying to achieve, no? for example, we could say that china is doing economics much better than the west (growing faster, better infrastructure, better education, more dynamism etc), if you wanted to say "what works" but im not sure most people here would want to follow that path... i feel there is an inherent political aspect that arises in economics that is being ignored... but maybe im just crazy?