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So I've lived in the UK for 12 years now and yes, to an extent you are right - it's shocking how little people care about surveilence. I've met more "if you are

So I've lived in the UK for 12 years now and yes, to an extent you are right - it's shocking how little people care about surveilence. I've met more "if you aren't doing anything wrong then you have nothing to fear" people here than anywhere else in the world. Every time I mention to someone that the Snoopers Chapter makes all ISPs record your browsing history and a huge number of agencies can just look through this data without a warrant(including the department of agriculture for some crazy reason), people just go "so?". It's a losing fight, really. Even my friends who are very technically minded don't seem to care at all. However - for all of this nonsense, I feel like some people(your post included) have an exaggerated sense of how bad it really is here. No, "thought crime" isn't being prosecuted. The rare police intervention that happens because someone got offended is usually resolved without any criminal charges. Yes it still shouldn't happen at all, but it's more of an anomaly than a rule. I say all of the above because where I'm from(Poland), ostensibly there is not as much surveilence as in the UK, yet the government and the police are far happier to prosecute the things you are worried about. Insulted the wrong politician online? Jail. Insulted the church? Jail. Went to the wrong protest? Jail. Made a comment online that could be seen as offensive to the church? Jail. I think my point is - yes, there is a lot of unnecessary surveilance in the UK, and a lot of people don't care about it......but you guys still don't know how good you have it. Of course two wrongs don't make a right.....but you need to have perspective on this.

mackrevinack 4y ago
> people just go "so?" its fascinating how most people would be at least annoyed if they found someone looking in their windows every day. even if that person was someone official looking who didn't look like they were going to rob or murder them. even if they were standing across the street from their house taking notes on them and not causing any harm, people would still want to know what they were doing. but when it comes to the same thing happening to them online the reaction is mostly just "so what?". it probably didn't help that everything online and in 'the cloud' is so much more abstract and harder to understand
zeroth32 4y ago
I think you are misrepresenting a bit. Would you have a source that people in Poland got jailed for "insulting" the church or politician? Or peaceful protest? Prosecutions I know are for something else; spraying on centuries old statues, throwing stones and so on. "Thought crime" in UK is not criminal offense, so there are no criminal charges. You get knock on door, invitation to police station and a fine. "Hate crime" is another level. Some guy did stunt with pig fat. He died in prison, authorities put him into maximum security prison with radical islamists. "Insulting religion" in UK is serious offense punishable by death!
- gambiting 4y ago
  You mean you haven't heard about those cases? It's not spraying centuries old statues - it's the catholics complaining about being offended again: https://wiadomosci.wp.pl/wroclaw-obraza-uczuc-religijnych-w-pizzerii-interweniowala-policja-6661957385730816a https://wiadomosci.wp.pl/wroclaw-obraza-uczuc-religijnych-w-... https://oko.press/podlesna-zatrzymana-matka-teczowa/ https://oko.press/podlesna-zatrzymana-matka-teczowa/ Not to mention that a whole bunch of things just got criminalized online if they offend the church, like........mentioning that it's the leading source of pedophiles in this country: https://aszdziennik.pl/138364,10-sposobow-na-obrazenie-kosciola-za-ktore-warto-isc-do-wiezienia https://aszdziennik.pl/138364,10-sposobow-na-obrazenie-kosci... The number of police interventions for people being offended online due to religion has been going up steadily every year: https://prawo.gazetaprawna.pl/artykuly/8053551,przestepstwo-obrazy-uczuc-religijnych-coraz-czestsze-w-2020-r-29-aktow-oskarzenia.html https://prawo.gazetaprawna.pl/artykuly/8053551,przestepstwo-... >>"Insulting religion" in UK is serious offense punishable by death! I am aware of that case, like I said, it shouldn't happen and two wrongs don't make a right. But I definitely feel like you are far more likely to get into trouble for this in Poland than in the UK, and it has nothing to do with the level of surveilance in society.
  - zeroth32 4y ago
    So one pending case and some opinion pieces. Do you have actual person who did time in jail? I can provide some for UK.... > mentioning that it's the leading source of pedophiles in this country Ehm, Rotherham...? > two wrongs don't make a right You claim Poland is much worse. I want similar case from Poland... > I definitely feel like you are far more likely to get into trouble for this in Poland than in the UK Poland is a post communist country, there is a big aversion to totalitarian govs. Comparing LGBT activism in rural Poland and ultra liberal parts of London, is not valid. Go to Luton or Yorkshire and see what happens...
roenxi 4y ago
> However - for all of this nonsense, I feel like some people(your post included) have an exaggerated sense of how bad it really is here. It literally hasn't been a century since the Europeans went full Nazi. We have no idea where the world will be in 25 years, but we do know there are a lot of plausible scenarios where this technology will get people killed. The government keeping detailed records of who went where, when should be completely banned, totally off the table. This is just laying the groundwork for the next time the fickle voting public decides to try authoritarianism again.
- gambiting 4y ago
  >>The government keeping detailed records of who went where, when should be completely banned, totally off the table. I completely agree with you.
- Veen 4y ago
  > It literally hasn't been a century since the Europeans went full Nazi. The "Europeans" didn't go full Nazi. Germany went full Nazi. Italy went full fascist. Their allies conformed to various degrees. But it was also Europeans who fought and died in their millions to overcome fascism. Most of the Jews and others who died in the Holocaust were Europeans.
Veen 4y ago
> The rare police intervention that happens because someone got offended is usually resolved without any criminal charges. But they are often recorded as a "non-crime hate incident," an innovation instigated by the police and not by legislators. Fortunately, there seems to be some pushback against this frankly dystopian practice. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/02/policing-sex-and-gender-debate-worrying-freedom-of-expression https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/02/polici...

mackrevinack 4y ago

> people just go "so?" its fascinating how most people would be at least annoyed if they found someone looking in their windows every day. even if that person was someone official looking who didn't look like they were going to rob or murder them. even if they were standing across the street from their house taking notes on them and not causing any harm, people would still want to know what they were doing. but when it comes to the same thing happening to them online the reaction is mostly just "so what?". it probably didn't help that everything online and in 'the cloud' is so much more abstract and harder to understand

zeroth32 4y ago

I think you are misrepresenting a bit. Would you have a source that people in Poland got jailed for "insulting" the church or politician? Or peaceful protest? Prosecutions I know are for something else; spraying on centuries old statues, throwing stones and so on. "Thought crime" in UK is not criminal offense, so there are no criminal charges. You get knock on door, invitation to police station and a fine. "Hate crime" is another level. Some guy did stunt with pig fat. He died in prison, authorities put him into maximum security prison with radical islamists. "Insulting religion" in UK is serious offense punishable by death!

gambiting 4y ago
You mean you haven't heard about those cases? It's not spraying centuries old statues - it's the catholics complaining about being offended again: https://wiadomosci.wp.pl/wroclaw-obraza-uczuc-religijnych-w-pizzerii-interweniowala-policja-6661957385730816a https://wiadomosci.wp.pl/wroclaw-obraza-uczuc-religijnych-w-... https://oko.press/podlesna-zatrzymana-matka-teczowa/ https://oko.press/podlesna-zatrzymana-matka-teczowa/ Not to mention that a whole bunch of things just got criminalized online if they offend the church, like........mentioning that it's the leading source of pedophiles in this country: https://aszdziennik.pl/138364,10-sposobow-na-obrazenie-kosciola-za-ktore-warto-isc-do-wiezienia https://aszdziennik.pl/138364,10-sposobow-na-obrazenie-kosci... The number of police interventions for people being offended online due to religion has been going up steadily every year: https://prawo.gazetaprawna.pl/artykuly/8053551,przestepstwo-obrazy-uczuc-religijnych-coraz-czestsze-w-2020-r-29-aktow-oskarzenia.html https://prawo.gazetaprawna.pl/artykuly/8053551,przestepstwo-... >>"Insulting religion" in UK is serious offense punishable by death! I am aware of that case, like I said, it shouldn't happen and two wrongs don't make a right. But I definitely feel like you are far more likely to get into trouble for this in Poland than in the UK, and it has nothing to do with the level of surveilance in society.
- zeroth32 4y ago
  So one pending case and some opinion pieces. Do you have actual person who did time in jail? I can provide some for UK.... > mentioning that it's the leading source of pedophiles in this country Ehm, Rotherham...? > two wrongs don't make a right You claim Poland is much worse. I want similar case from Poland... > I definitely feel like you are far more likely to get into trouble for this in Poland than in the UK Poland is a post communist country, there is a big aversion to totalitarian govs. Comparing LGBT activism in rural Poland and ultra liberal parts of London, is not valid. Go to Luton or Yorkshire and see what happens...

roenxi 4y ago

> However - for all of this nonsense, I feel like some people(your post included) have an exaggerated sense of how bad it really is here. It literally hasn't been a century since the Europeans went full Nazi. We have no idea where the world will be in 25 years, but we do know there are a lot of plausible scenarios where this technology will get people killed. The government keeping detailed records of who went where, when should be completely banned, totally off the table. This is just laying the groundwork for the next time the fickle voting public decides to try authoritarianism again.

gambiting 4y ago
>>The government keeping detailed records of who went where, when should be completely banned, totally off the table. I completely agree with you.
Veen 4y ago
> It literally hasn't been a century since the Europeans went full Nazi. The "Europeans" didn't go full Nazi. Germany went full Nazi. Italy went full fascist. Their allies conformed to various degrees. But it was also Europeans who fought and died in their millions to overcome fascism. Most of the Jews and others who died in the Holocaust were Europeans.

Veen 4y ago

> The rare police intervention that happens because someone got offended is usually resolved without any criminal charges. But they are often recorded as a "non-crime hate incident," an innovation instigated by the police and not by legislators. Fortunately, there seems to be some pushback against this frankly dystopian practice. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/02/policing-sex-and-gender-debate-worrying-freedom-of-expression https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/02/polici...