4 ms·

Its like they live in a bubble and have no idea that many developers choose Thinkpads not only because of build quality/keyboard but also because those work wel

Its like they live in a bubble and have no idea that many developers choose Thinkpads not only because of build quality/keyboard but also because those work well with Linux. Framework[0] is looking more and more attractive as my next machine. [0]: https://frame.work/ https://frame.work/

JonChesterfield 4y ago
Still seems to be intel only
- noisy_boy 4y ago
  Considering Framework seem to be in tune with general developer sentiment, I'm hoping they spot the interest in AMD/Ryzen platform and expand their product line. Hopefully it is just a supply chain problem that is eventually solved.
  - feet 4y ago
    More like I bet there are engineers who care but marketing and bean counters decided these anti consumer things. Its a corporation like any other
    - caramelcustard 4y ago
      No way, i thought laptop manufacturers were running a charity! "...these anti consumer things." except AFAIK it's because of Thunderbolt and docking. Yes, USB 4 is a thing, but it has some differences.
  - dcow 4y ago
    While I share your optimism I doubt it’s just a supply chain issue. It’s entirely different board design, different thermal requirements, power draw, chipset, etc. Browse their community site for more context.. plenty of discussion on the topic.
    - vaylian 4y ago
      Thanks. As someone who only does software engineering, I really appreciate this explanation.
- caramelcustard 4y ago
  Thunderbolt and docking are to blame.
alangibson 4y ago
They have to know of the Linux fanbase they have. I'm willing to believe this was a rogue decision that will be reversed. Time will tell. Framework laptops are looking more and more like the future for Linux users tho.
- NavinF 4y ago
  Ehh this is the same company that burns fuses on AMD CPUs to vendor lock them and stop resale/reuse: https://www.servethehome.com/lenovo-vendor-locking-ryzen-cpus-with-amd-psb-the-video/ https://www.servethehome.com/lenovo-vendor-locking-ryzen-cpu... I doubt their anti-consumer behavior and security claims are some “rogue decision that will be reversed”.
  - alangibson 4y ago
    I'm also completely willing to believe their decision is nefarious.
- lhl 4y ago
  Nothing against the Framework (it'll likely be my next laptop) but there are plenty of other good Linux options as well now (in general, I don't think Thinkpads have been very good for a while since their battery and keyboards have gotten so much worse and they've switched to partially or fully soldered RAM on most models). There's the HP Dev One if you need a trackpoint, System76 and Star Labs with coreboot, Tuxedo or Slimbook for some really compellingly specced options (the Pulse 15 Gen2 and Slimbook Executive 14 both hit a lot of high-points for iGPU-only computing IMO).
  - noisy_boy 4y ago
    My first laptop was a HP nx6230 - built like a tank with a fabulous keyboard. I really miss such machines. I checked out the Dev One. However, it doesn't seem to offer any configuration options and seems like a take-it-or-leave it pre-config (not sure if that is some location-specific thing).
herbst 4y ago
To be fair I only recently switched from a T420 to a T480s and the build quality, especially the keyboard just feels a lot less great. Pretty sure they aren't MIL standard anymore either. Linux however still is no issue. Not sure if Lenevo actually does care at all.
- snmx999 4y ago
  T480s is MIL-STD-810G (source: https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_T480s/ThinkPad_T480s_Spec.PDF https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_T... ) I could not find any information regarding the MIL standard about T420.
krasin 4y ago
Today, my daughter spilled orange juice on her Framework laptop. I was able to quickly disconnect the battery, unscrew everything and wipe all the juice. Laptop is working fine now, thanks to the Framework design. A stark contrast with an HP laptop that died after the same daughter spilled sweet tea. There was no option for self-repair. It was possible to open the back lid and save the NVME, and that's pretty much it. Framework > HP
- noisy_boy 4y ago
  > after the same daughter I like your positioning of her being the recurring root cause :)
- Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
  You are misattributing the blame and comparing sugar to oranges. Clearly, orange juice is a much more healthy drink, so spilling it results in less severe damage.
  - hawski 4y ago
    Isn't an average boxed orange juice as full of sugar as any other beverage?
    - nerdponx 4y ago
      Yes, and even fresh-squeezed orange juice is pretty sugary, not to mention acidic. Maybe if it's super pulpy that could have something to do with slowing down liquid getting into crevices, but I doubt it.
    - cardinalfang 4y ago
      It's full of fructose, which is slightly less viscous than sucrose and therefore healthier for the laptop.
    - mst 4y ago
      American sweet tea is an outlier.
orphea 4y ago
What are your thoughts about system76 laptops? https://system76.com/laptops https://system76.com/laptops
- scandox 4y ago
  I bought one recently. First time in years I spent anything over 200 on a laptop (usually refurbish). It's great in many ways but I just am very disappointed in the keyboard. It's really a lot less nice than the Thinkpad keyboards (even the new models). I wouldn't dream of buying Lenovo though.
- noisy_boy 4y ago
  I think they are great (I am using Pop!_OS currently). However, I think Framework jumped ahead of them with the modular port expansion cards and open design.
byefruit 4y ago
Have had four generations of X-series Thinkpads as my daily drivers. Lenovo's build quality and customer service has deteriorated significantly over the years. Now have a 12th gen Framework on order.
- noisy_boy 4y ago
  I feel like Framework have an opportunity to capitalize on their momentum and build a ridiculously well built "Thinkpad-killer" machine and charge beyond premium for it and many devs would still pay up gladly. Just a hunch.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
zambal 4y ago
There could be good reasons to switch from Thinkpad to Framework, but I think this 'issue' isn't one. It's a setting that can easily be turned off in the BIOS UI. One could argue that this shouldn't be the default (and I would agree), but in practice this is a none issue.
- noisy_boy 4y ago
  The issue isn't that it can't be dealt with through BIOS; it is that this is not a particular Linux friendly stance to take. Also, if this makes Linux users worry about the things to come, say removal of this setting from BIOS, I don't think that is a completely unfounded fear.

JonChesterfield 4y ago

Still seems to be intel only

noisy_boy 4y ago
Considering Framework seem to be in tune with general developer sentiment, I'm hoping they spot the interest in AMD/Ryzen platform and expand their product line. Hopefully it is just a supply chain problem that is eventually solved.
- feet 4y ago
  More like I bet there are engineers who care but marketing and bean counters decided these anti consumer things. Its a corporation like any other
  - caramelcustard 4y ago
    No way, i thought laptop manufacturers were running a charity! "...these anti consumer things." except AFAIK it's because of Thunderbolt and docking. Yes, USB 4 is a thing, but it has some differences.
- dcow 4y ago
  While I share your optimism I doubt it’s just a supply chain issue. It’s entirely different board design, different thermal requirements, power draw, chipset, etc. Browse their community site for more context.. plenty of discussion on the topic.
  - vaylian 4y ago
    Thanks. As someone who only does software engineering, I really appreciate this explanation.
caramelcustard 4y ago
Thunderbolt and docking are to blame.

alangibson 4y ago

They have to know of the Linux fanbase they have. I'm willing to believe this was a rogue decision that will be reversed. Time will tell. Framework laptops are looking more and more like the future for Linux users tho.

NavinF 4y ago
Ehh this is the same company that burns fuses on AMD CPUs to vendor lock them and stop resale/reuse: https://www.servethehome.com/lenovo-vendor-locking-ryzen-cpus-with-amd-psb-the-video/ https://www.servethehome.com/lenovo-vendor-locking-ryzen-cpu... I doubt their anti-consumer behavior and security claims are some “rogue decision that will be reversed”.
- alangibson 4y ago
  I'm also completely willing to believe their decision is nefarious.
lhl 4y ago
Nothing against the Framework (it'll likely be my next laptop) but there are plenty of other good Linux options as well now (in general, I don't think Thinkpads have been very good for a while since their battery and keyboards have gotten so much worse and they've switched to partially or fully soldered RAM on most models). There's the HP Dev One if you need a trackpoint, System76 and Star Labs with coreboot, Tuxedo or Slimbook for some really compellingly specced options (the Pulse 15 Gen2 and Slimbook Executive 14 both hit a lot of high-points for iGPU-only computing IMO).
- noisy_boy 4y ago
  My first laptop was a HP nx6230 - built like a tank with a fabulous keyboard. I really miss such machines. I checked out the Dev One. However, it doesn't seem to offer any configuration options and seems like a take-it-or-leave it pre-config (not sure if that is some location-specific thing).

herbst 4y ago

To be fair I only recently switched from a T420 to a T480s and the build quality, especially the keyboard just feels a lot less great. Pretty sure they aren't MIL standard anymore either. Linux however still is no issue. Not sure if Lenevo actually does care at all.

snmx999 4y ago
T480s is MIL-STD-810G (source: https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_T480s/ThinkPad_T480s_Spec.PDF https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_T... ) I could not find any information regarding the MIL standard about T420.

krasin 4y ago

Today, my daughter spilled orange juice on her Framework laptop. I was able to quickly disconnect the battery, unscrew everything and wipe all the juice. Laptop is working fine now, thanks to the Framework design. A stark contrast with an HP laptop that died after the same daughter spilled sweet tea. There was no option for self-repair. It was possible to open the back lid and save the NVME, and that's pretty much it. Framework > HP

noisy_boy 4y ago
> after the same daughter I like your positioning of her being the recurring root cause :)
Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
You are misattributing the blame and comparing sugar to oranges. Clearly, orange juice is a much more healthy drink, so spilling it results in less severe damage.
- hawski 4y ago
  Isn't an average boxed orange juice as full of sugar as any other beverage?
  - nerdponx 4y ago
    Yes, and even fresh-squeezed orange juice is pretty sugary, not to mention acidic. Maybe if it's super pulpy that could have something to do with slowing down liquid getting into crevices, but I doubt it.
  - cardinalfang 4y ago
    It's full of fructose, which is slightly less viscous than sucrose and therefore healthier for the laptop.
  - mst 4y ago
    American sweet tea is an outlier.

orphea 4y ago

What are your thoughts about system76 laptops? https://system76.com/laptops https://system76.com/laptops

scandox 4y ago
I bought one recently. First time in years I spent anything over 200 on a laptop (usually refurbish). It's great in many ways but I just am very disappointed in the keyboard. It's really a lot less nice than the Thinkpad keyboards (even the new models). I wouldn't dream of buying Lenovo though.
noisy_boy 4y ago
I think they are great (I am using Pop!_OS currently). However, I think Framework jumped ahead of them with the modular port expansion cards and open design.

byefruit 4y ago

Have had four generations of X-series Thinkpads as my daily drivers. Lenovo's build quality and customer service has deteriorated significantly over the years. Now have a 12th gen Framework on order.

noisy_boy 4y ago
I feel like Framework have an opportunity to capitalize on their momentum and build a ridiculously well built "Thinkpad-killer" machine and charge beyond premium for it and many devs would still pay up gladly. Just a hunch.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

zambal 4y ago

There could be good reasons to switch from Thinkpad to Framework, but I think this 'issue' isn't one. It's a setting that can easily be turned off in the BIOS UI. One could argue that this shouldn't be the default (and I would agree), but in practice this is a none issue.

noisy_boy 4y ago
The issue isn't that it can't be dealt with through BIOS; it is that this is not a particular Linux friendly stance to take. Also, if this makes Linux users worry about the things to come, say removal of this setting from BIOS, I don't think that is a completely unfounded fear.