6 ms·

The picture is confusing, it seems like the truck is on the highway, until I realized that this is probably here: https://goo.gl/maps/sK9CRov2YQijCiXU9 https://

by creato 4y ago

The picture is confusing, it seems like the truck is on the highway, until I realized that this is probably here: https://goo.gl/maps/sK9CRov2YQijCiXU9 https://goo.gl/maps/sK9CRov2YQijCiXU9 How the hell the Tesla managed to hit a truck at what looks like highway speeds there is hard to imagine. If this was an FSD or autopilot failure, it would be by far the most egregious I’ve seen.

jader201 4y ago
This is exactly what I was thinking, and why I think it’s bigger news (vs. me just hearing about it a day later via non-HN sources).
ncmncm 4y ago
It is so common it is not news anymore? I am intensely curious what really does happen if you try to get a refund for FSD. (That, whether or not this was actually an FSD event.) Presumably, you signed some BS about arbitration, so you go to arbitration. What then? Maybe their tame arbitrator says "f** off", so then you sue. Does Tesla contest it, or pay? If not, and it goes to court, does Tesla default and get ordered to pay? Has anybody got a judge to order treble damages, for bad faith and for making you need to go to court just to get back what you paid for what they utterly failed to deliver? It seems like there could be a specialty in suing Tesla for refusing a refund. And, there must be a fair number of cases either settled or adjudicated already.
- rasz 4y ago
  Most likely just the threat of suing will get you a refund under NDA.
defrost 4y ago
Tesla auto-pilot is simply just "not smart" .. despite all the hype it is functionally not much more than a scaled up "white line following" feedback circuit. From the map it likely followed the traffic sweep in feeder to the rest stop and identified the parked vehicles as traffic ahead on what was assumed to be a highway. By my understanding many Tesla models lack Lidar for ranging and speed estimates and operate solely on relatively limited PoV vision cameras.
- epgui 4y ago
  I don't see anything in the article that suggests that any of that was relevant to this crash. Is there any other information out at this time?
  - defrost 4y ago
    There's a documentary about past Tesla crashes that hilights the recurrent issue with crashing at speed into stationary objects. IIRC: Elon Musk’s Crash Course (althugh there may be several, I'd have to check my records for the one(s) that I've viewed).
    - epgui 4y ago
      So in summary, there is no evidence that this has anything to do with that at this time?
- kwhitefoot 4y ago
  Tesla has never used LIDAR. New Tesla's don't have radar either. But pre 2021 Tesla's use radar to measure the distance to moving objects. But the radar is fairly wide angle and for that reason items that are not moving are excluded from consideration because they can be billboards or buildings beside the road. This limitation also applies to radar use by other manufacturers for emergency braking sensors.
KindOne 4y ago
Here is the original image that is not zoomed in. https://i.imgur.com/YKtf8Jj.jpg https://i.imgur.com/YKtf8Jj.jpg (4032 x 3024 pixels)
- lloeki 4y ago
  Hmm, aren't there low hanging bars at bumper level on the side and end of the trailer, so that crumpling zones come into effect instead of decapitating the car with no chance of energy absorbtion through deformation (which seemed to not have been happening there) I recall in Europe these became mandatory decades ago when a similar crash happened, killing one person, the family of which fought a long battle to have these bars become mandatory (which a couple of years later saved my father's life when he launched to overtake a truck, that suddenly decided to brake hard and turn left without notice at the last second). edit: seems like in 2015, 2% were killed this way in Germany (where it's been mandatory for decades) vs 16% in the US https://www.dekra-roadsafety.com/fr/protection-anti-encastrement-et-protection-laterale-sur-les-camions/ https://www.dekra-roadsafety.com/fr/protection-anti-encastre...
  - dredmorbius 4y ago
    Yes, underride or "Mansfield bars" (after actress Jane Mansfield who was killed in a similar accident). Those are only rated for impacts to 35 mph. From the position of the Tesla in the image, it may have been travelling substantially faster. The Tesla is also a deceptively massive automobile for its size, with much of that mass being low, in particular below the position of an underride bar, which might otherwise engage with the engine of a conventional vehicle. Effectively, the Tesla has a longer lever arm to apply force to the undderride bar. Whether or not that is a factor in Tesla-trailer collisons isn't clear, but might be something that warrants investigation and testing.
  - rascul 4y ago
    > aren't there low hanging bars at bumper level on the side and end of the trailer I don't know if all of them have it, or if it's mandated, but a lot of trailers do have those bars on the rear end.

by creato 4y ago

jader201 4y ago

This is exactly what I was thinking, and why I think it’s bigger news (vs. me just hearing about it a day later via non-HN sources).

ncmncm 4y ago

It is so common it is not news anymore? I am intensely curious what really does happen if you try to get a refund for FSD. (That, whether or not this was actually an FSD event.) Presumably, you signed some BS about arbitration, so you go to arbitration. What then? Maybe their tame arbitrator says "f** off", so then you sue. Does Tesla contest it, or pay? If not, and it goes to court, does Tesla default and get ordered to pay? Has anybody got a judge to order treble damages, for bad faith and for making you need to go to court just to get back what you paid for what they utterly failed to deliver? It seems like there could be a specialty in suing Tesla for refusing a refund. And, there must be a fair number of cases either settled or adjudicated already.

rasz 4y ago
Most likely just the threat of suing will get you a refund under NDA.

defrost 4y ago

Tesla auto-pilot is simply just "not smart" .. despite all the hype it is functionally not much more than a scaled up "white line following" feedback circuit. From the map it likely followed the traffic sweep in feeder to the rest stop and identified the parked vehicles as traffic ahead on what was assumed to be a highway. By my understanding many Tesla models lack Lidar for ranging and speed estimates and operate solely on relatively limited PoV vision cameras.

epgui 4y ago
I don't see anything in the article that suggests that any of that was relevant to this crash. Is there any other information out at this time?
- defrost 4y ago
  There's a documentary about past Tesla crashes that hilights the recurrent issue with crashing at speed into stationary objects. IIRC: Elon Musk’s Crash Course (althugh there may be several, I'd have to check my records for the one(s) that I've viewed).
  - epgui 4y ago
    So in summary, there is no evidence that this has anything to do with that at this time?
kwhitefoot 4y ago
Tesla has never used LIDAR. New Tesla's don't have radar either. But pre 2021 Tesla's use radar to measure the distance to moving objects. But the radar is fairly wide angle and for that reason items that are not moving are excluded from consideration because they can be billboards or buildings beside the road. This limitation also applies to radar use by other manufacturers for emergency braking sensors.

KindOne 4y ago

Here is the original image that is not zoomed in. https://i.imgur.com/YKtf8Jj.jpg https://i.imgur.com/YKtf8Jj.jpg (4032 x 3024 pixels)

lloeki 4y ago
Hmm, aren't there low hanging bars at bumper level on the side and end of the trailer, so that crumpling zones come into effect instead of decapitating the car with no chance of energy absorbtion through deformation (which seemed to not have been happening there) I recall in Europe these became mandatory decades ago when a similar crash happened, killing one person, the family of which fought a long battle to have these bars become mandatory (which a couple of years later saved my father's life when he launched to overtake a truck, that suddenly decided to brake hard and turn left without notice at the last second). edit: seems like in 2015, 2% were killed this way in Germany (where it's been mandatory for decades) vs 16% in the US https://www.dekra-roadsafety.com/fr/protection-anti-encastrement-et-protection-laterale-sur-les-camions/ https://www.dekra-roadsafety.com/fr/protection-anti-encastre...
- dredmorbius 4y ago
  Yes, underride or "Mansfield bars" (after actress Jane Mansfield who was killed in a similar accident). Those are only rated for impacts to 35 mph. From the position of the Tesla in the image, it may have been travelling substantially faster. The Tesla is also a deceptively massive automobile for its size, with much of that mass being low, in particular below the position of an underride bar, which might otherwise engage with the engine of a conventional vehicle. Effectively, the Tesla has a longer lever arm to apply force to the undderride bar. Whether or not that is a factor in Tesla-trailer collisons isn't clear, but might be something that warrants investigation and testing.
- rascul 4y ago
  > aren't there low hanging bars at bumper level on the side and end of the trailer I don't know if all of them have it, or if it's mandated, but a lot of trailers do have those bars on the rear end.