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>>EDIT: what we should do is expand the EV tax credit No we don't, that will increase inflation is basically a tax on poor people to pay for rich people to bu

>>EDIT: what we should do is expand the EV tax credit No we don't, that will increase inflation is basically a tax on poor people to pay for rich people to buy new vehicle The EV Tax credit needs to do away completely, EV can either compete with ICE in the market or they cant, government should not be picking winners or losers. >>Also, a Hummer EV is displacing other large vehicles. Not until batter tech improves, I am interested in an EV truck, none of them have the towing range that makes them practical for a weekend trip to the dock with your boat, or a camping trip. One of the Youtube channels I watch just did a head to head with a ICE truck against the Ford Lightening, they did not get 80 miles with the truck before they ran out of charge pulling a normal sized trailer, that is with the Truck claiming a 150 or so mile range at the start of the trip. TERRIBLE towing miles. Current batteries may be good for a car like the Model 3 and Model S, or the Mach E, but it is TERRIBLE for large SUV's or Trucks that are made for towing

mixmastamyk 4y ago
So don't use them for towing, or wait 5-9 years. Towing is not not done by a huge fraction of trucks, in fact most are probably looking pretty in suburban driveways.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  While most trucks are not used for towing daily, many truck owner have them for vacations, and other rec uses on top of daily driving, this saves having to have 2 vehicles (or 3) So even if the Truck is only used for towing 2 times a year, you will never get most truck owners to buy one with a 80mile towing range
  - switchbak 4y ago
    Shoot, if that's true I'd rather just rent a truck twice a year and own a vehicle that suits my needs better for the other 363 days of the year.
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      Good news, we have a free society that allows you the freedom to pick either rent or own... You may choose rent, but why do you feel like your choice is the one EVERYONE should be forced into?
      - mixmastamyk 4y ago
        Is someone forcing you to buy a truck? Like I said, wait a few years. Used to hear the same disparaging comments about digital cameras. Ten years later film cameras barely exist. Battery tech has moved a bit slower, but has made incredible strides in twenty. We're almost there, just a matter of time.
        phpisthebest 4y ago
        The entire context of this discussion is about government penalties or subsidies for on ICE or EV.. As I said a in my opening comment, there should be neither and like the Film vs Digital the market should work itself out The comments in this thread is people pushing back claiming the market can not do that and the government must step in with its coercive force to tip the scales. Government action by it very nature is force.
      - switchbak 4y ago
        Late reply, but why the heck are you assuming that I'm trying to force anyone to do anything? Where in my comment did I say that? I was only talking about my own opinion here, dude. Perhaps a little less assumption next time.
  - woevdbz 4y ago
    > this saves having to have 2 vehicles (or 3) Maybe this saves having to rent a car for the occasion... Even then. Friend of mine busted his daily commute SUV before a long road trip. Ended up renting a much more fuel efficient sedan. Could not believe how little gas he used on the way. Maybe next time he'll rent again. Trucks in the US are a stupid status booster for most people. Once you start seeing cars as a box to safely get you, your passengers and your cargo from point A to point B for a decent amount of time and money, and stop thinking about how what you drive makes you look, not a whole lot of trucks make sense anymore.
jasonjayr 4y ago
> The EV Tax credit needs to do away completely, EV can either compete with ICE in the market or they cant, government should not be picking winners or losers. One of the governments jobs is to make sure externalities are accounted for, and ICEs should not get a free ride by not dealing with their pollution. There are many things that do not make sense on the open market, unless we can collectively agree to tip the scales in the direction it should go for a better society, till the "market" can manage it on it's own.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  >>One of the governments jobs is to make sure externalities are accounted We clearly differ as to what the role of government is, because I do not believe that is one of the governments job at all. Government is simply the organization of the natural right of lawful defense to protect persons, liberties, and properties; to maintain the right of each. Nothing more, nothing less Given the federal tax credit is US Law, I would also like you to point to where in the US Constitution is the power granted to the federal government to "make sure externalities are accounted" I missed that provision in my copy of the Constitution >>There are many things that do not make sense on the open market I am sure we are going to disagree widely here as well, as I am very much an Adam Smith invisible hand adherent
  - arrosenberg 4y ago
    > Government is simply the organization of the natural right of lawful defense to protect persons, liberties, and properties; to maintain the right of each. Nothing more, nothing less …which they are doing by encouraging the adoption of electric vehicles. Lotta property is gonna go underwater, the less carbon we emit today, the less needs defending tomorrow.
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      Maybe, but there is zero evidence that the Tax Credit does what people claim it does, it seems to me people buying EV are doing so regardless of the Tax Credit, instead is simply is a subsidy for people that can already afford the sticker price anyway, i.e wealthy people.
Robotbeat 4y ago
The EV tax credit doesn't apply at all to the Hummer EV, so you have your wish. But what we need is a full carbon tax of about $250/tonne of CO2 (eventually), as that's approximately the fully accounted social cost and is also about the long-term cost to suck the CO2 out of the air and store it. Then there wouldn't be any need to subsidize anything except for the usual industrial policy/tech dev reasons as the externalities would be priced in.
amanaplanacanal 4y ago
I agree to an extent. Pass a carbon tax to take care of the externalities, and let the invisible hand work. Unfortunately most people who are as enamored with the free market as you are would never go for it. So instead we get things like EV tax credits.

mixmastamyk 4y ago

So don't use them for towing, or wait 5-9 years. Towing is not not done by a huge fraction of trucks, in fact most are probably looking pretty in suburban driveways.

phpisthebest 4y ago
While most trucks are not used for towing daily, many truck owner have them for vacations, and other rec uses on top of daily driving, this saves having to have 2 vehicles (or 3) So even if the Truck is only used for towing 2 times a year, you will never get most truck owners to buy one with a 80mile towing range
- switchbak 4y ago
  Shoot, if that's true I'd rather just rent a truck twice a year and own a vehicle that suits my needs better for the other 363 days of the year.
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    Good news, we have a free society that allows you the freedom to pick either rent or own... You may choose rent, but why do you feel like your choice is the one EVERYONE should be forced into?
    - mixmastamyk 4y ago
      Is someone forcing you to buy a truck? Like I said, wait a few years. Used to hear the same disparaging comments about digital cameras. Ten years later film cameras barely exist. Battery tech has moved a bit slower, but has made incredible strides in twenty. We're almost there, just a matter of time.
      - phpisthebest 4y ago
        The entire context of this discussion is about government penalties or subsidies for on ICE or EV.. As I said a in my opening comment, there should be neither and like the Film vs Digital the market should work itself out The comments in this thread is people pushing back claiming the market can not do that and the government must step in with its coercive force to tip the scales. Government action by it very nature is force.
    - switchbak 4y ago
      Late reply, but why the heck are you assuming that I'm trying to force anyone to do anything? Where in my comment did I say that? I was only talking about my own opinion here, dude. Perhaps a little less assumption next time.
- woevdbz 4y ago
  > this saves having to have 2 vehicles (or 3) Maybe this saves having to rent a car for the occasion... Even then. Friend of mine busted his daily commute SUV before a long road trip. Ended up renting a much more fuel efficient sedan. Could not believe how little gas he used on the way. Maybe next time he'll rent again. Trucks in the US are a stupid status booster for most people. Once you start seeing cars as a box to safely get you, your passengers and your cargo from point A to point B for a decent amount of time and money, and stop thinking about how what you drive makes you look, not a whole lot of trucks make sense anymore.

jasonjayr 4y ago

> The EV Tax credit needs to do away completely, EV can either compete with ICE in the market or they cant, government should not be picking winners or losers. One of the governments jobs is to make sure externalities are accounted for, and ICEs should not get a free ride by not dealing with their pollution. There are many things that do not make sense on the open market, unless we can collectively agree to tip the scales in the direction it should go for a better society, till the "market" can manage it on it's own.

phpisthebest 4y ago
>>One of the governments jobs is to make sure externalities are accounted We clearly differ as to what the role of government is, because I do not believe that is one of the governments job at all. Government is simply the organization of the natural right of lawful defense to protect persons, liberties, and properties; to maintain the right of each. Nothing more, nothing less Given the federal tax credit is US Law, I would also like you to point to where in the US Constitution is the power granted to the federal government to "make sure externalities are accounted" I missed that provision in my copy of the Constitution >>There are many things that do not make sense on the open market I am sure we are going to disagree widely here as well, as I am very much an Adam Smith invisible hand adherent
- arrosenberg 4y ago
  > Government is simply the organization of the natural right of lawful defense to protect persons, liberties, and properties; to maintain the right of each. Nothing more, nothing less …which they are doing by encouraging the adoption of electric vehicles. Lotta property is gonna go underwater, the less carbon we emit today, the less needs defending tomorrow.
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    Maybe, but there is zero evidence that the Tax Credit does what people claim it does, it seems to me people buying EV are doing so regardless of the Tax Credit, instead is simply is a subsidy for people that can already afford the sticker price anyway, i.e wealthy people.

Robotbeat 4y ago

The EV tax credit doesn't apply at all to the Hummer EV, so you have your wish. But what we need is a full carbon tax of about $250/tonne of CO2 (eventually), as that's approximately the fully accounted social cost and is also about the long-term cost to suck the CO2 out of the air and store it. Then there wouldn't be any need to subsidize anything except for the usual industrial policy/tech dev reasons as the externalities would be priced in.

amanaplanacanal 4y ago

I agree to an extent. Pass a carbon tax to take care of the externalities, and let the invisible hand work. Unfortunately most people who are as enamored with the free market as you are would never go for it. So instead we get things like EV tax credits.