6 ms·

You can have plenty of friends while believing that not having any kids is a fail, 70% of married couples have kids. Also, most reasonable people don't alienate

You can have plenty of friends while believing that not having any kids is a fail, 70% of married couples have kids. Also, most reasonable people don't alienate friends over differing beliefs.

greenthrow 4y ago
The person saying someone else's reproductive decisions are a failure is the one alienating people.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
Godel_unicode 4y ago
That’s their point, though. Calling not having kids a fail is alienating people who have chosen not to (or can’t) have kids.
- otterley 4y ago
  It might alienate some atypically sensitive people, but as someone who has no children, I don't feel particularly alienated by it; and I don't think most people who have no kids take particular offense to it either.
  - carrolldunham 4y ago
    Have you thought about people who want to but can't? And the whole range of factors that might be in play as to why not?
    - throwawaylinux 4y ago
      > Have you thought about people who want to but can't? Well that's clearly a failure then, isn't it? By definition.
      - skissane 4y ago
        Some people use the word failure in a way which – whether by denotation or just connotation – includes an aspect of culpability, blame, fault. If that's your understanding of failure, using it to speak of people in that situation does seem particularly insensitive. On the other hand, maybe other people have a different understanding of the word, in which the element of culpability/blame/fault is either missing, or at least, less emphasised–these people may struggle to understand what others are so upset about, especially if they aren't aware of that difference in the understanding of the word.
        throwawaylinux 4y ago
        If they tried to have kids and were not able to then they failed. There is no "understanding" of the word where that's not true. And people get upset or offended by anything, it's really not useful trying to shut down discussion by claiming you shouldn't say or think something because allegedly some hypothetical people might get upset.
        skissane 4y ago
        > If they tried to have kids and were not able to then they failed. There is no "understanding" of the word where that's not true. "They failed" does have some connotation of culpability though, doesn't it? I mean, the phrase certainly is sometimes used in situations where nobody would understand it as implying any blame; but, on the other hand, there are many other cases in which it is used in a blaming way, and those other cases contribute to its connotations. > And people get upset or offended by anything, it's really not useful trying to shut down discussion by claiming you shouldn't say or think something because allegedly some hypothetical people might get upset. I'm not trying to shut down anything. I'm just attempting to produce an explanation of why some people, rightly or wrongly, actually are upset (which is rather apparent from other comments on this post.)
        throwawaylinux 4y ago
        > "They failed" does have some connotation of culpability though, doesn't it? I mean, the phrase certainly is sometimes used in situations where nobody would understand it as implying any blame; but, on the other hand, there are many other cases in which it is used in a blaming way, and those other cases contribute to its connotations. It usually does have some, yes. For example if you are infertile through some fault of your reproductive system, then that is to blame for your inability to have children. > I'm not trying to shut down anything. I'm just attempting to produce an explanation of why some people, rightly or wrongly, actually are upset (which is rather apparent from other comments on this post.) I think they're just vicariously upset. Either way I wasn't wondering about them. Just correcting a misconception about the use of a word.
    - hndamien 4y ago
      The genes would see it as a failure, but they don't really have feelings or motivations, so I'm not sure it makes sense to anthropomorphise them. If we do, it's easy to not take offense, you just have a charitable interpretation and move on with your day.
  - m_mueller 4y ago
    I read it in the context of giving your life to a woman and her company who then marries someone else and has kids. But yeah in hindsight the inclusion of that is not in the best taste, he could be childless for many reasons, none of which should be of public concern.
  - Semaphor 4y ago
    How am I atypically sensitive if I don’t want to have anything to do with a person who thinks my beliefs and choices are a failure? That sounds like a recipe for disaster. Instead, I choose to be friends with people who accept me as I am. ETA: Though I wouldn’t want them to not express it, the opposite.
    - Semaphor 4y ago
      I wish the people who are apparently extremely easily offended by this would tell me what’s so bad about my opinion.
    - otterley 4y ago
      Because most people aren’t so offended by it that they choose to avoid people with such opinions altogether (I’m not talking about not wanting to be friends, but rather, being offended). Such sensitivity is atypical by definition. It’s not intended to be an insult, merely an observation.
      - Godel_unicode 4y ago
        How can you possibly know that? The hubris of thinking that because you haven’t seen it it’s uncommon on it’s face is truly staggering.
        otterley 4y ago
        I have seen it. It's still uncommon. Besides, how does it possibly help you (or anyone else) to get emotionally wounded by some random stranger on the Internet's insensitive comments? Most people older than their 20s have figured this out already and are living more productive lives.
      - Semaphor 4y ago
        I mean, as long as you also don’t mind me finding it a failure to have children… > I’m not talking about not wanting to be friends, but rather, being offended That’s not what you said, you said alienate.
- matt-attack 4y ago
  Wouldn't alienate me. I have religious friends who call my atheism a "fail". Doesn't both me one bit. Being confident in your believes gives you the ability to weather criticism. Likewise I routinely an upfront with religious friends that I think they believe in made up things, and are wasting their time. It's just a fact that I think that, and it's honest. Again, shouldn't bother well-adjusted religious people. They kinda know that 100% of the earth's population doesn't believe the same things as they do. You kinda get that going in to it. People should be more open to welcoming differing opinions. No one should have to self-censor their own opinions.
  - Godel_unicode 4y ago
s1artibartfast 4y ago
That hinges on what you mean by fail. Most reasonable people don't alienate friends over different beliefs, but most people also have some sense of discretion when judging the lives of their friends. I think I would have issues with a friend who judged me as having failed, or worse, a failure for what I consider personal and subjective life choices.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  >Most reasonable people don't alienate friends over different beliefs, like the different belief that not having kids is a fail? Or can you alienate friends over beliefs you disagree with, but not ones you do? I mean I do not have any kids, but I know many people that believe one of goals of life is to have children, and I am intelligent enough to understand that procreation is evolution's goal Thus I do not get offended or alienate people from my life if they say me not having kids is a failure
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    There is a difference between believing something to be a personal truth and a universal truth. I don't know if it would irreconcilable, but I think I would have an issue if someone tried to openly judge me and think me a lesser person based on their personal truths.
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      Well that is getting close to an ongoing trend I see in wider society. I do not need anyone else to approve of my life style. If someone told me a lifestyle choice I made was to them a "failure". I would seek to understand why, evaluate if their logic has any application to my life and if not simply shrug and disgard thier opinion. If I instead it did have value I would see if I wanted to make a change The fact the people judge other people actions based on their worldview is just a fact of life. Seeking that external validation of ones life choices to me shows insecurities in those choices. In order have a pluralist society we have to be a to allow people to "think less of us" while still engaging, talking, and transacting with them. If we instead simply reject everyone that does not share our worldview then that is a monoculture, and most likely and dystopian society as well
WalterBright 4y ago
I wouldn't have any friends if we couldn't have a beer and laugh about our differences.
- anarazel 4y ago
  Considering friends failures seems a bit more than differences. But I'd assume that's more a thing of quickly writing an HN comment than anything else.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    You can't succeed without first doing a lot of failing. I didn't say my friends were losers. Losers quit when they fail. Winners get up, learn, and try again. I like to hang out with winners.

You can have plenty of friends while believing that not having any kids is a fail, 70% of married couples have kids. Also, most reasonable people don't alienate friends over differing beliefs.

greenthrow 4y ago

The person saying someone else's reproductive decisions are a failure is the one alienating people.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

Godel_unicode 4y ago

That’s their point, though. Calling not having kids a fail is alienating people who have chosen not to (or can’t) have kids.

otterley 4y ago
It might alienate some atypically sensitive people, but as someone who has no children, I don't feel particularly alienated by it; and I don't think most people who have no kids take particular offense to it either.
- carrolldunham 4y ago
  Have you thought about people who want to but can't? And the whole range of factors that might be in play as to why not?
  - throwawaylinux 4y ago
    > Have you thought about people who want to but can't? Well that's clearly a failure then, isn't it? By definition.
    - skissane 4y ago
      Some people use the word failure in a way which – whether by denotation or just connotation – includes an aspect of culpability, blame, fault. If that's your understanding of failure, using it to speak of people in that situation does seem particularly insensitive. On the other hand, maybe other people have a different understanding of the word, in which the element of culpability/blame/fault is either missing, or at least, less emphasised–these people may struggle to understand what others are so upset about, especially if they aren't aware of that difference in the understanding of the word.
      - throwawaylinux 4y ago
        If they tried to have kids and were not able to then they failed. There is no "understanding" of the word where that's not true. And people get upset or offended by anything, it's really not useful trying to shut down discussion by claiming you shouldn't say or think something because allegedly some hypothetical people might get upset.
        skissane 4y ago
        > If they tried to have kids and were not able to then they failed. There is no "understanding" of the word where that's not true. "They failed" does have some connotation of culpability though, doesn't it? I mean, the phrase certainly is sometimes used in situations where nobody would understand it as implying any blame; but, on the other hand, there are many other cases in which it is used in a blaming way, and those other cases contribute to its connotations. > And people get upset or offended by anything, it's really not useful trying to shut down discussion by claiming you shouldn't say or think something because allegedly some hypothetical people might get upset. I'm not trying to shut down anything. I'm just attempting to produce an explanation of why some people, rightly or wrongly, actually are upset (which is rather apparent from other comments on this post.)
        throwawaylinux 4y ago
        > "They failed" does have some connotation of culpability though, doesn't it? I mean, the phrase certainly is sometimes used in situations where nobody would understand it as implying any blame; but, on the other hand, there are many other cases in which it is used in a blaming way, and those other cases contribute to its connotations. It usually does have some, yes. For example if you are infertile through some fault of your reproductive system, then that is to blame for your inability to have children. > I'm not trying to shut down anything. I'm just attempting to produce an explanation of why some people, rightly or wrongly, actually are upset (which is rather apparent from other comments on this post.) I think they're just vicariously upset. Either way I wasn't wondering about them. Just correcting a misconception about the use of a word.
  - hndamien 4y ago
    The genes would see it as a failure, but they don't really have feelings or motivations, so I'm not sure it makes sense to anthropomorphise them. If we do, it's easy to not take offense, you just have a charitable interpretation and move on with your day.
- m_mueller 4y ago
  I read it in the context of giving your life to a woman and her company who then marries someone else and has kids. But yeah in hindsight the inclusion of that is not in the best taste, he could be childless for many reasons, none of which should be of public concern.
- Semaphor 4y ago
  How am I atypically sensitive if I don’t want to have anything to do with a person who thinks my beliefs and choices are a failure? That sounds like a recipe for disaster. Instead, I choose to be friends with people who accept me as I am. ETA: Though I wouldn’t want them to not express it, the opposite.
  - Semaphor 4y ago
    I wish the people who are apparently extremely easily offended by this would tell me what’s so bad about my opinion.
  - otterley 4y ago
    Because most people aren’t so offended by it that they choose to avoid people with such opinions altogether (I’m not talking about not wanting to be friends, but rather, being offended). Such sensitivity is atypical by definition. It’s not intended to be an insult, merely an observation.
    - Godel_unicode 4y ago
      How can you possibly know that? The hubris of thinking that because you haven’t seen it it’s uncommon on it’s face is truly staggering.
      - otterley 4y ago
        I have seen it. It's still uncommon. Besides, how does it possibly help you (or anyone else) to get emotionally wounded by some random stranger on the Internet's insensitive comments? Most people older than their 20s have figured this out already and are living more productive lives.
    - Semaphor 4y ago
      I mean, as long as you also don’t mind me finding it a failure to have children… > I’m not talking about not wanting to be friends, but rather, being offended That’s not what you said, you said alienate.
matt-attack 4y ago
Wouldn't alienate me. I have religious friends who call my atheism a "fail". Doesn't both me one bit. Being confident in your believes gives you the ability to weather criticism. Likewise I routinely an upfront with religious friends that I think they believe in made up things, and are wasting their time. It's just a fact that I think that, and it's honest. Again, shouldn't bother well-adjusted religious people. They kinda know that 100% of the earth's population doesn't believe the same things as they do. You kinda get that going in to it. People should be more open to welcoming differing opinions. No one should have to self-censor their own opinions.
- Godel_unicode 4y ago

s1artibartfast 4y ago

That hinges on what you mean by fail. Most reasonable people don't alienate friends over different beliefs, but most people also have some sense of discretion when judging the lives of their friends. I think I would have issues with a friend who judged me as having failed, or worse, a failure for what I consider personal and subjective life choices.

phpisthebest 4y ago
>Most reasonable people don't alienate friends over different beliefs, like the different belief that not having kids is a fail? Or can you alienate friends over beliefs you disagree with, but not ones you do? I mean I do not have any kids, but I know many people that believe one of goals of life is to have children, and I am intelligent enough to understand that procreation is evolution's goal Thus I do not get offended or alienate people from my life if they say me not having kids is a failure
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  There is a difference between believing something to be a personal truth and a universal truth. I don't know if it would irreconcilable, but I think I would have an issue if someone tried to openly judge me and think me a lesser person based on their personal truths.
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    Well that is getting close to an ongoing trend I see in wider society. I do not need anyone else to approve of my life style. If someone told me a lifestyle choice I made was to them a "failure". I would seek to understand why, evaluate if their logic has any application to my life and if not simply shrug and disgard thier opinion. If I instead it did have value I would see if I wanted to make a change The fact the people judge other people actions based on their worldview is just a fact of life. Seeking that external validation of ones life choices to me shows insecurities in those choices. In order have a pluralist society we have to be a to allow people to "think less of us" while still engaging, talking, and transacting with them. If we instead simply reject everyone that does not share our worldview then that is a monoculture, and most likely and dystopian society as well

WalterBright 4y ago

I wouldn't have any friends if we couldn't have a beer and laugh about our differences.

anarazel 4y ago
Considering friends failures seems a bit more than differences. But I'd assume that's more a thing of quickly writing an HN comment than anything else.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  You can't succeed without first doing a lot of failing. I didn't say my friends were losers. Losers quit when they fail. Winners get up, learn, and try again. I like to hang out with winners.