8 ms·

Arguably that’s why you need legislation to more strongly dissuade buying a ridiculous car like that via taxes or whatever. If you leave it to individual choice

Arguably that’s why you need legislation to more strongly dissuade buying a ridiculous car like that via taxes or whatever. If you leave it to individual choice there will always be plenty of people who don’t care about the costs they’re imposing on others.

ReptileMan 4y ago
The US has huge variety of terrain, climate and road quality. Hummer has it's use cases.
- afavour 4y ago
  I always see replies like this in conversations about vehicles in the US and it baffles me a little. Yes, of course there are appropriate situations in which someone might own a Hummer. But are we really trying to claim that even 10% of Hummers out there today are used in those situations? They’re very obvious status symbols.
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    > They’re very obvious status symbols. Vast majority of people with a truck or off-road vehicle have one for work - they’re working vehicles.
    - krallja 4y ago
      Vast minority*
    - finfinfin 4y ago
      This definitely does not mean what you think it means. Owning a large car for work doesn’t mean it’s utilized as such. I know people who own trucks and large SUVs for work - but it’s “just in case” not because they need additional space on a daily or even weekly basis.
    - btilly 4y ago
      We're talking about Hummers here, right? https://www.motorbiscuit.com/why-hummers-arent-good-for-off-roading/ https://www.motorbiscuit.com/why-hummers-arent-good-for-off-... If their owners wanted to actually go off road, they'd have bought something else. They really have no purpose other than to mark you as a person with more money than sense.
    - RC_ITR 4y ago
      Ok let's diligence this: There are about 60m trucks on the road in the US [0] There are 6m construction/mining workers, 6m installation workers, and 4m building maintenance workers. [1] Using that definition, at most, 25% of trucks are used for work. If you want to be extremely generous, there are also 13m transportation drivers (being very generous because that 60m does not include big rigs) and 8m factory workers (again, unlikely to use trucks for work). Using that frankly incorrect definition, you still get only 62% of trucks being used for work. So no, under NO circumstances are the "vast majority" of trucks in the US used for work. [0]https://www.bts.gov/content/number-us-aircraft-vehicles-vessels-and-other-conveyances https://www.bts.gov/content/number-us-aircraft-vehicles-vess... [1] https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm
      - chrisseaton 4y ago
        > There are 6m construction/mining workers, 6m installation workers, and 4m building maintenance workers. What’s this random collection of jobs and why do you think they’re the only people who use a truck for work? Have you ever met for example a farmer? Crazy concept for people in tech, I know.
        RC_ITR 4y ago
        So you must not be familiar with NAICS codes. They are a mutually exclusive completely exhaustive categorization of jobs, as defined by the US government. Here's the other ones: 11-0000 Management Occupations 13-0000 Business and Financial Operations Occupations 15-0000 Computer and Mathematical Occupations 17-0000 Architecture and Engineering Occupations 19-0000 Life, Physical, and Social Science Occupations 21-0000 Community and Social Service Occupations 23-0000 Legal Occupations 25-0000 Educational Instruction and Library Occupations 27-0000 Arts, Design, Entertainment, Sports, and Media Occupations 29-0000 Healthcare Practitioners and Technical Occupations 31-0000 Healthcare Support Occupations 33-0000 Protective Service Occupations 35-0000 Food Preparation and Serving Related Occupations 37-0000 Building and Grounds Cleaning and Maintenance Occupations 39-0000 Personal Care and Service Occupations 41-0000 Sales and Related Occupations 43-0000 Office and Administrative Support Occupations 45-0000 Farming, Fishing, and Forestry Occupations 47-0000 Construction and Extraction Occupations 49-0000 Installation, Maintenance, and Repair Occupations 51-0000 Production Occupations 53-0000 Transportation and Material Moving Occupations Sure, maybe the 500k farming, fishing, and Forestry workers should be added to the list, but I'm curious as to what else you think should be. EDIT: HN is banning me so this doesn't turn into a flamewar, but I'll leave you with this: I am trying not to personally attack you, but I think you're kind of dipping into ad hominen attacks because you regret making statement that is not supported by data. If you want to know why I think they shouldn't be included (and why I think you're really over your skis here), it's because the reality of farm work in the US is as follows: 1) The majority of the <1m US farm workers do the following job [0] [1]: Manually plant, cultivate, and harvest vegetables, fruits, nuts, horticultural specialties, and field crops. Use hand tools, such as shovels, trowels, hoes, tampers, pruning hooks, shears, and knives. It is not clear to me that this requires a truck (especially not one for each worker). 2) The average wage of farmworkers is $15/hour [1] and the average cost of a used F-150 in the US is $40k ($30k pre-pandemic) [2], so it's not immediately clear to me that this group of people own a large number of pick-ups. Ultimately though, for someone to work at a large tech company, make their identity publicly available and to be so aggressive on a forum like this seems like a weird risk to take. If you want to delete all of this stuff and just move on, I'm ok with that. [0]https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes452092.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes452092.htm [1]https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/farm-labor/#wages https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/farm-labor/#wag... [2] https://pickuptrucktalk.com/2021/07/used-pickup-truck-prices-are-insane-up-27-or-more/ https://pickuptrucktalk.com/2021/07/used-pickup-truck-prices...
    - corrral 4y ago
      I live in a truck-loving part of the country. This cannot possibly be true.
    - freshpots 4y ago
      https://goshare.co/pickup-truck-facts/ https://goshare.co/pickup-truck-facts/ They really don't. Ford did a similar study and found around the same number. Only 15% of pickup truck owners use them for work.
    - DonHopkins 4y ago
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- bonzini 4y ago
  A Suzuki Jimny would probably be more effective for 99% of Hummer owners that actually use it off-road, and in turn that is probably a very small minority of the total.
  - corrral 4y ago
    There's probably some amount of a valid point there, but making it about a Hummer, specifically, undermines it, since they suck at most of the things one might think they'd be good at. Incidentally, I saw tons of Hummers on the road around here in the '00s. Now... I thought they'd stopped making them. All those "I want a huge car because... I want a huge car" buyers must be getting expensive trucks or other kinds of big SUVs these days.
    - seoaeu 4y ago
      The reason Hummers suck for those off-road and work uses is because so few people actually use them for that
  - rhesa 4y ago
    Yesterday's "off-road" battle on Carwow featured a Jimny and a (petrol) Hummer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Srb8LYt82z0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Srb8LYt82z0 . Spoiler: the Jimny won.
- 7speter 4y ago
  Yes the vehicle that’s too heavy to cross a not insignificant percentage of bridges within the U.S. has its use cases.
- nr2x 4y ago
  It makes sense to rent them near such places as speciality items, but you don't need for the grocery run.
- grapeskin 4y ago
  I’ve been in places with rougher terrain than virtually anything in the US. You’ll see people in areas like that driving a beat up truck barely large enough to fit 2 people or a tiny scooter that’s hauling a half ton of cargo. Nobody is getting their hummer dirty or risking a scratch. And anybody going to a job site is going to prefer an actual truck over an oversized vehicle for bored suburban couples.
- DonHopkins 4y ago
  So do apostrophes, and that's not one of them. ;)
- roflyear 4y ago
  No one needs a hummer.
HPsquared 4y ago
The high cost does this automatically, a Hummer EV is over $100k.
bragr 4y ago
Relevant example from Finland: https://www.thedrive.com/news/44642/imported-1000-hp-hennessey-ram-trx-limited-to-55-mph-over-tax-loophole https://www.thedrive.com/news/44642/imported-1000-hp-henness...
pmichaud 4y ago
This seems like a useless place to optimize. Like, what is the total pollution output of all Hummers or similar vehicles? A rounding error, I'm guessing. The only way to make dents is with systemic changes like for entire trucking industry, for example.
- quickthrower2 4y ago
  Well could be done on all scales. A small Kia with a roofrack / towbar maybe for extra cargo / small trailer is probably big enough for most human A->B needs, even small scale moving house.
  - corrral 4y ago
    Large trucks and SUVs tend to be so expensive to buy and operate that you can pay for a lot of deliveries and truck rentals per year—maybe a boat slip at the local marina, too—while still saving money. Farther out in the sticks, sure, those things may be so inconvenient or unavailable that it's not an option, but it is for the average Suburban Assault Vehicle owner.
    - quickthrower2 4y ago
      Yes, some people really need big vehicles (and/or we need them to keep farming) and so you need exemptions. In the UK there is Red diesel for example that is for farm use / private use that is much cheaper than diesel for the road.
      - lostlogin 4y ago
        What is the justification for this subsidy?
        amanaplanacanal 4y ago
        Likely untaxed for road wear that isn't happening when they aren't driven on roads.
willcipriano 4y ago
Combine it with a similarly restrictive air travel regulation and I'm on board. Takes a lot of miles in a Hummer to equal a trip to Europe and back.
- nr2x 4y ago
  Ugh, just skipped a conference in Australia for that reason - decided I'm only doing long-haul flights for things I *really* care about.
  - willcipriano 4y ago
    "Honor is the gift a man gives himself." I'm fairly low emissions but mostly by accident. I work from home and have until recently been too poor to travel like that. I just always found it annoying when people who are jetting around the globe complain about other people's cars. You on the other hand have a leg to stand on in that regard.
    - nr2x 4y ago
      I put in a ton of flight miles and saw the world. No regrets, but I recognize I need to spend my carbon more judiciously now. That said, I do truly believe travel makes you a better person, so if you can afford it now you should get out there and see it before it all burns down. Use my “credit”. :-)
vvern 4y ago
Can we just properly price carbon emissions and be done with it?
- culi 4y ago
  What are the carbon emissions of manufacturing a yellow pencil? The amount of carbon released by the trees that were cut down? What about the chemicals needed to add the shine? Or the rubber manufactured for the eraser? What about the employees that have less time to feed themselves so they buy crappy junk food with packaging creating more waste? What about the costs to recycle it? What about the ecosystem that was replaced to make way for the new factory? What about the cost of the tools that were created to make these pencils? Do you calculate that in by how much wear is added every time they're used? And what about the tools needed to make THOSE tools? What about the graphite powder used for the lead or the energy it cost to heat petroleum coke above the temperature of graphitization or the ships needed to ship those to the right factory? What about that petcoke? Do you discount some of its cost because its mostly a side-product of the process of refining oil? What about when a company innovates to sell higher quality pencils made of higher quality petcoke that requires more emissions to make and isn't just a byproduct? What is the social cost of advertising and manipulating tastes in demand? Where exactly do you stop? [Yes this is my subverted version of "I, pencil"]
  - johnfernow 4y ago
    > The simplest approach, administratively, is to levy the carbon tax “upstream,” where the fewest entities would be subject to it (for instance, suppliers of coal, natural gas processing facilities, and oil refineries). Include other highly polluting industries with that, and while you may not get 100% coverage, it would definitely cover the majority of carbon intensive products and services and lead to a drastic reduction in emissions. CCL estimates that the annual administrative cost of a carbon tax in the US would be about $4 to $5 billion per year, which is about 6.8 percent of revenues in year one ($15/ton of CO2e year one, rising by $10/ton each year), but as revenues grow along with the fee, it drops to only about 1.7 percent by year 10.
    - 4y ago
7speter 4y ago
That’s why we need legislators who actually legislate.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
elihu 4y ago
> If you leave it to individual choice there will always be plenty of people who don’t care about the costs they’re imposing on others. I think the current state of affairs is actually worse than that -- big trucks are popular not just because some people like big trucks, but also because there are regulations that prevent small trucks from being a viable market segment in the U.S.: that class of vehicle has much more stringent fuel economy standards (perversely forcing people into larger vehicles with looser regulations), and light trucks imported from other countries are subject to a 25% tariff. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax The only light truck I know of that you can get currently is the long version of the Jeep Wrangler. I'm not sure if they actually meet the fuel economy standards, or if they can somehow claim to not technically be a light truck. Maybe there are some others, but as far as I can tell almost all trucks sold in the U.S. are huge and have comically tall grills. If I wasn't already in the middle of an EV conversion project, I'd be tempted to get something like an old Datsun 620 and load it up with batteries. I wish there was a product on the market like that.

ReptileMan 4y ago

The US has huge variety of terrain, climate and road quality. Hummer has it's use cases.

afavour 4y ago
I always see replies like this in conversations about vehicles in the US and it baffles me a little. Yes, of course there are appropriate situations in which someone might own a Hummer. But are we really trying to claim that even 10% of Hummers out there today are used in those situations? They’re very obvious status symbols.
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  > They’re very obvious status symbols. Vast majority of people with a truck or off-road vehicle have one for work - they’re working vehicles.
  - krallja 4y ago
    Vast minority*
  - finfinfin 4y ago
    This definitely does not mean what you think it means. Owning a large car for work doesn’t mean it’s utilized as such. I know people who own trucks and large SUVs for work - but it’s “just in case” not because they need additional space on a daily or even weekly basis.
  - btilly 4y ago
    We're talking about Hummers here, right? https://www.motorbiscuit.com/why-hummers-arent-good-for-off-roading/ https://www.motorbiscuit.com/why-hummers-arent-good-for-off-... If their owners wanted to actually go off road, they'd have bought something else. They really have no purpose other than to mark you as a person with more money than sense.
  - RC_ITR 4y ago
    Ok let's diligence this: There are about 60m trucks on the road in the US [0] There are 6m construction/mining workers, 6m installation workers, and 4m building maintenance workers. [1] Using that definition, at most, 25% of trucks are used for work. If you want to be extremely generous, there are also 13m transportation drivers (being very generous because that 60m does not include big rigs) and 8m factory workers (again, unlikely to use trucks for work). Using that frankly incorrect definition, you still get only 62% of trucks being used for work. So no, under NO circumstances are the "vast majority" of trucks in the US used for work. [0]https://www.bts.gov/content/number-us-aircraft-vehicles-vessels-and-other-conveyances https://www.bts.gov/content/number-us-aircraft-vehicles-vess... [1] https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm
    - chrisseaton 4y ago
      > There are 6m construction/mining workers, 6m installation workers, and 4m building maintenance workers. What’s this random collection of jobs and why do you think they’re the only people who use a truck for work? Have you ever met for example a farmer? Crazy concept for people in tech, I know.
      - RC_ITR 4y ago
        So you must not be familiar with NAICS codes. They are a mutually exclusive completely exhaustive categorization of jobs, as defined by the US government. Here's the other ones: 11-0000 Management Occupations 13-0000 Business and Financial Operations Occupations 15-0000 Computer and Mathematical Occupations 17-0000 Architecture and Engineering Occupations 19-0000 Life, Physical, and Social Science Occupations 21-0000 Community and Social Service Occupations 23-0000 Legal Occupations 25-0000 Educational Instruction and Library Occupations 27-0000 Arts, Design, Entertainment, Sports, and Media Occupations 29-0000 Healthcare Practitioners and Technical Occupations 31-0000 Healthcare Support Occupations 33-0000 Protective Service Occupations 35-0000 Food Preparation and Serving Related Occupations 37-0000 Building and Grounds Cleaning and Maintenance Occupations 39-0000 Personal Care and Service Occupations 41-0000 Sales and Related Occupations 43-0000 Office and Administrative Support Occupations 45-0000 Farming, Fishing, and Forestry Occupations 47-0000 Construction and Extraction Occupations 49-0000 Installation, Maintenance, and Repair Occupations 51-0000 Production Occupations 53-0000 Transportation and Material Moving Occupations Sure, maybe the 500k farming, fishing, and Forestry workers should be added to the list, but I'm curious as to what else you think should be. EDIT: HN is banning me so this doesn't turn into a flamewar, but I'll leave you with this: I am trying not to personally attack you, but I think you're kind of dipping into ad hominen attacks because you regret making statement that is not supported by data. If you want to know why I think they shouldn't be included (and why I think you're really over your skis here), it's because the reality of farm work in the US is as follows: 1) The majority of the <1m US farm workers do the following job [0] [1]: Manually plant, cultivate, and harvest vegetables, fruits, nuts, horticultural specialties, and field crops. Use hand tools, such as shovels, trowels, hoes, tampers, pruning hooks, shears, and knives. It is not clear to me that this requires a truck (especially not one for each worker). 2) The average wage of farmworkers is $15/hour [1] and the average cost of a used F-150 in the US is $40k ($30k pre-pandemic) [2], so it's not immediately clear to me that this group of people own a large number of pick-ups. Ultimately though, for someone to work at a large tech company, make their identity publicly available and to be so aggressive on a forum like this seems like a weird risk to take. If you want to delete all of this stuff and just move on, I'm ok with that. [0]https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes452092.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes452092.htm [1]https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/farm-labor/#wages https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/farm-labor/#wag... [2] https://pickuptrucktalk.com/2021/07/used-pickup-truck-prices-are-insane-up-27-or-more/ https://pickuptrucktalk.com/2021/07/used-pickup-truck-prices...
  - corrral 4y ago
    I live in a truck-loving part of the country. This cannot possibly be true.
  - freshpots 4y ago
    https://goshare.co/pickup-truck-facts/ https://goshare.co/pickup-truck-facts/ They really don't. Ford did a similar study and found around the same number. Only 15% of pickup truck owners use them for work.
  - DonHopkins 4y ago
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
bonzini 4y ago
A Suzuki Jimny would probably be more effective for 99% of Hummer owners that actually use it off-road, and in turn that is probably a very small minority of the total.
- corrral 4y ago
  There's probably some amount of a valid point there, but making it about a Hummer, specifically, undermines it, since they suck at most of the things one might think they'd be good at. Incidentally, I saw tons of Hummers on the road around here in the '00s. Now... I thought they'd stopped making them. All those "I want a huge car because... I want a huge car" buyers must be getting expensive trucks or other kinds of big SUVs these days.
  - seoaeu 4y ago
    The reason Hummers suck for those off-road and work uses is because so few people actually use them for that
- rhesa 4y ago
  Yesterday's "off-road" battle on Carwow featured a Jimny and a (petrol) Hummer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Srb8LYt82z0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Srb8LYt82z0 . Spoiler: the Jimny won.
7speter 4y ago
Yes the vehicle that’s too heavy to cross a not insignificant percentage of bridges within the U.S. has its use cases.
nr2x 4y ago
It makes sense to rent them near such places as speciality items, but you don't need for the grocery run.
grapeskin 4y ago
I’ve been in places with rougher terrain than virtually anything in the US. You’ll see people in areas like that driving a beat up truck barely large enough to fit 2 people or a tiny scooter that’s hauling a half ton of cargo. Nobody is getting their hummer dirty or risking a scratch. And anybody going to a job site is going to prefer an actual truck over an oversized vehicle for bored suburban couples.
DonHopkins 4y ago
So do apostrophes, and that's not one of them. ;)
roflyear 4y ago
No one needs a hummer.

HPsquared 4y ago

The high cost does this automatically, a Hummer EV is over $100k.

bragr 4y ago

Relevant example from Finland: https://www.thedrive.com/news/44642/imported-1000-hp-hennessey-ram-trx-limited-to-55-mph-over-tax-loophole https://www.thedrive.com/news/44642/imported-1000-hp-henness...

pmichaud 4y ago

This seems like a useless place to optimize. Like, what is the total pollution output of all Hummers or similar vehicles? A rounding error, I'm guessing. The only way to make dents is with systemic changes like for entire trucking industry, for example.

quickthrower2 4y ago
Well could be done on all scales. A small Kia with a roofrack / towbar maybe for extra cargo / small trailer is probably big enough for most human A->B needs, even small scale moving house.
- corrral 4y ago
  Large trucks and SUVs tend to be so expensive to buy and operate that you can pay for a lot of deliveries and truck rentals per year—maybe a boat slip at the local marina, too—while still saving money. Farther out in the sticks, sure, those things may be so inconvenient or unavailable that it's not an option, but it is for the average Suburban Assault Vehicle owner.
  - quickthrower2 4y ago
    Yes, some people really need big vehicles (and/or we need them to keep farming) and so you need exemptions. In the UK there is Red diesel for example that is for farm use / private use that is much cheaper than diesel for the road.
    - lostlogin 4y ago
      What is the justification for this subsidy?
      - amanaplanacanal 4y ago
        Likely untaxed for road wear that isn't happening when they aren't driven on roads.

willcipriano 4y ago

Combine it with a similarly restrictive air travel regulation and I'm on board. Takes a lot of miles in a Hummer to equal a trip to Europe and back.

nr2x 4y ago
Ugh, just skipped a conference in Australia for that reason - decided I'm only doing long-haul flights for things I *really* care about.
- willcipriano 4y ago
  "Honor is the gift a man gives himself." I'm fairly low emissions but mostly by accident. I work from home and have until recently been too poor to travel like that. I just always found it annoying when people who are jetting around the globe complain about other people's cars. You on the other hand have a leg to stand on in that regard.
  - nr2x 4y ago
    I put in a ton of flight miles and saw the world. No regrets, but I recognize I need to spend my carbon more judiciously now. That said, I do truly believe travel makes you a better person, so if you can afford it now you should get out there and see it before it all burns down. Use my “credit”. :-)

vvern 4y ago

Can we just properly price carbon emissions and be done with it?

culi 4y ago
What are the carbon emissions of manufacturing a yellow pencil? The amount of carbon released by the trees that were cut down? What about the chemicals needed to add the shine? Or the rubber manufactured for the eraser? What about the employees that have less time to feed themselves so they buy crappy junk food with packaging creating more waste? What about the costs to recycle it? What about the ecosystem that was replaced to make way for the new factory? What about the cost of the tools that were created to make these pencils? Do you calculate that in by how much wear is added every time they're used? And what about the tools needed to make THOSE tools? What about the graphite powder used for the lead or the energy it cost to heat petroleum coke above the temperature of graphitization or the ships needed to ship those to the right factory? What about that petcoke? Do you discount some of its cost because its mostly a side-product of the process of refining oil? What about when a company innovates to sell higher quality pencils made of higher quality petcoke that requires more emissions to make and isn't just a byproduct? What is the social cost of advertising and manipulating tastes in demand? Where exactly do you stop? [Yes this is my subverted version of "I, pencil"]
- johnfernow 4y ago
  > The simplest approach, administratively, is to levy the carbon tax “upstream,” where the fewest entities would be subject to it (for instance, suppliers of coal, natural gas processing facilities, and oil refineries). Include other highly polluting industries with that, and while you may not get 100% coverage, it would definitely cover the majority of carbon intensive products and services and lead to a drastic reduction in emissions. CCL estimates that the annual administrative cost of a carbon tax in the US would be about $4 to $5 billion per year, which is about 6.8 percent of revenues in year one ($15/ton of CO2e year one, rising by $10/ton each year), but as revenues grow along with the fee, it drops to only about 1.7 percent by year 10.
  - 4y ago

7speter 4y ago

That’s why we need legislators who actually legislate.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

elihu 4y ago

> If you leave it to individual choice there will always be plenty of people who don’t care about the costs they’re imposing on others. I think the current state of affairs is actually worse than that -- big trucks are popular not just because some people like big trucks, but also because there are regulations that prevent small trucks from being a viable market segment in the U.S.: that class of vehicle has much more stringent fuel economy standards (perversely forcing people into larger vehicles with looser regulations), and light trucks imported from other countries are subject to a 25% tariff. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax The only light truck I know of that you can get currently is the long version of the Jeep Wrangler. I'm not sure if they actually meet the fuel economy standards, or if they can somehow claim to not technically be a light truck. Maybe there are some others, but as far as I can tell almost all trucks sold in the U.S. are huge and have comically tall grills. If I wasn't already in the middle of an EV conversion project, I'd be tempted to get something like an old Datsun 620 and load it up with batteries. I wish there was a product on the market like that.