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Yes, the invasion of Ukraine hopefully showed how naive this type of thinking is, i.e. "I hate war, therefore I won't support or work on defense technologies".

tsimionescu 4y ago
The invasion of Ukraine has shown precisely the opposite: playing military games gets youe neighbours antsy, and an antsy empire just invades to calm its nerves. If Ukraine hadn't been slowly de facto integrating into NATO (NATO weapons, NATO training, and even joint military exercises with NATO, on Ukrainian soil), it would have been much harder for Putin to justify the extreme costs this invasion is having on his economy.
- lovich 4y ago
  If the Ukraine invasion was in a vacuum maybe but Russia has set it sights on a number of nations regardless of their NATO involvement. They’re absorbing Belarus soon, was Belarus getting too cozy with NATO?
- CamperBob2 4y ago
  "Well, I only robbed your house because you threatened to join the neighborhood watch."
  - tsimionescu 4y ago
    While international politics is unsavory, it is what it is. Have you seen the US response to the Solomon Islands signing a military treaty with China? They made it clear that if there is any attempt at establishing a Chinese military base there, the US wouldn't put a military response off the table.
    - lovich 4y ago
      The right lesson to learn from Russia is that big countries are ever willing to sacrifice small countries in their bids for power. Russians would have been much better off had they worked with NATO to avoid or quickly settle the proxy war, especially after heroically sacrificing more soldiers and weaponry in the initial invasion then they had in Afghanistan Instead, goaded on the by the oligarchs and Putin, they are fighting a losing war that will hurt tens or hundreds of thousands over the coming years. There is 0 chance NATO will back off. Of course, it will also empower Putin, which is what Putin and the Oligarchs actually want. Russia fell right into their trap, and thinks they are being helped empowered.
      - tsimionescu 4y ago
        I know you're trying to mirror some of my comments, but this is just gibberish. Of course Russia would have been better off if they (and NATO) had been willing to negotiate. Russia is not "goaded on" by Putin, it is directly controlled. They also don't care too much about the Ukrainians they are killing or hurting. If Ukraine backs off, there's not much NATO can do about it - except perhaps start working on regime change in Ukraine. > Of course, it will also empower Putin, which is what Putin and the Oligarchs actually want. Russia fell right into their trap, and thinks they are being helped empowered. I don't unbeatable what these words are supposed to mean.
        lovich 4y ago
        It is as gibberish as your original comment read to me. There’s this undercurrent in your arguments that Russia was always going to do this, like an inevitable force of nature, and Ukraine just has to/ had to get out of the way. If you don’t hold that assumption, like myself, then your viewpoint seems absurd
        tsimionescu 4y ago
        Russia was never going to allow Ukraine to become a de facto or de jure NATO ally. If you don't accept this as something as close to a fact as nature as anything can be in international politics, I don't know what you would accept. So, Ukraine has a choice: seek to join NATO knowing that will eventually lead to conflict with Russia, but hoping you can beat them. Or, seek to attain a neutral status, where they can forge their own path between NATO and Russia, maybe on a model similar to Finland. The option of peacefully joining NATO simply doesn't exist. Empires will never willingly allow anything like that, if they have any semblance of power to prevent it. Note that the Baltic countries, who also share a land border with Russia, joined NATO at a time when Russia was so weak it could simply not do anything about it.
        CamperBob2 4y ago
        Russia was never going to allow Ukraine to become a de facto or de jure NATO ally. Who asked them?
- uf00lme 4y ago
  I don’t understand this logic. I don’t see how an ‘if’ Ukraine joined nato and a ‘maybe’ it might give NATO an advantage over Russia is better then war now. I don’t see how something that is a known horror for all involved, is better than something that ‘could be’ worse maybe one day. The only unknown currently is how much more horrific it will become and how long it will go for. Generations of hatred have been sown already. There was definitely ways to appease each side prior to war, eg integrating Russia’s economy and energy grid further into Europe and the west. This was a terrible failure of diplomacy that built up over decades. Now that all involved are getting more experienced at warfare it will just promote deadlier warfare, ai controlled weapons etc etc. I’m completely losing faith in humanity, it unbelievable sad what’s happening.
  - tsimionescu 4y ago
    I wholeheartedly agree with you - the current war is the result of decades of mistrust, hostility and grandstanding, from both sides of the conflict (NATO and Russia). It is the worse of all possible outcomes, and puts us closer than ever to direct war between these two major nuclear powers. Assuming we didn't get there though, I think the only part of the calculation that you are missing is that the war is not a horror for Putin and his entourage, and neither for NATO leaders. It is a horror for the people of Ukraine, their army, and the Russian soldiers who actually have to fight it. The seeds of hatred will also prove to be a horror for the ordinary Russians who will suffer greatly in retaliation. Unfortunately, their leaders and ours will have probably been long dead after content, peaceful lives, uncaring of the harm they have caused.

tsimionescu 4y ago

The invasion of Ukraine has shown precisely the opposite: playing military games gets youe neighbours antsy, and an antsy empire just invades to calm its nerves. If Ukraine hadn't been slowly de facto integrating into NATO (NATO weapons, NATO training, and even joint military exercises with NATO, on Ukrainian soil), it would have been much harder for Putin to justify the extreme costs this invasion is having on his economy.

lovich 4y ago
If the Ukraine invasion was in a vacuum maybe but Russia has set it sights on a number of nations regardless of their NATO involvement. They’re absorbing Belarus soon, was Belarus getting too cozy with NATO?
CamperBob2 4y ago
"Well, I only robbed your house because you threatened to join the neighborhood watch."
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  While international politics is unsavory, it is what it is. Have you seen the US response to the Solomon Islands signing a military treaty with China? They made it clear that if there is any attempt at establishing a Chinese military base there, the US wouldn't put a military response off the table.
  - lovich 4y ago
    The right lesson to learn from Russia is that big countries are ever willing to sacrifice small countries in their bids for power. Russians would have been much better off had they worked with NATO to avoid or quickly settle the proxy war, especially after heroically sacrificing more soldiers and weaponry in the initial invasion then they had in Afghanistan Instead, goaded on the by the oligarchs and Putin, they are fighting a losing war that will hurt tens or hundreds of thousands over the coming years. There is 0 chance NATO will back off. Of course, it will also empower Putin, which is what Putin and the Oligarchs actually want. Russia fell right into their trap, and thinks they are being helped empowered.
    - tsimionescu 4y ago
      I know you're trying to mirror some of my comments, but this is just gibberish. Of course Russia would have been better off if they (and NATO) had been willing to negotiate. Russia is not "goaded on" by Putin, it is directly controlled. They also don't care too much about the Ukrainians they are killing or hurting. If Ukraine backs off, there's not much NATO can do about it - except perhaps start working on regime change in Ukraine. > Of course, it will also empower Putin, which is what Putin and the Oligarchs actually want. Russia fell right into their trap, and thinks they are being helped empowered. I don't unbeatable what these words are supposed to mean.
      - lovich 4y ago
        It is as gibberish as your original comment read to me. There’s this undercurrent in your arguments that Russia was always going to do this, like an inevitable force of nature, and Ukraine just has to/ had to get out of the way. If you don’t hold that assumption, like myself, then your viewpoint seems absurd
        tsimionescu 4y ago
        Russia was never going to allow Ukraine to become a de facto or de jure NATO ally. If you don't accept this as something as close to a fact as nature as anything can be in international politics, I don't know what you would accept. So, Ukraine has a choice: seek to join NATO knowing that will eventually lead to conflict with Russia, but hoping you can beat them. Or, seek to attain a neutral status, where they can forge their own path between NATO and Russia, maybe on a model similar to Finland. The option of peacefully joining NATO simply doesn't exist. Empires will never willingly allow anything like that, if they have any semblance of power to prevent it. Note that the Baltic countries, who also share a land border with Russia, joined NATO at a time when Russia was so weak it could simply not do anything about it.
        CamperBob2 4y ago
        Russia was never going to allow Ukraine to become a de facto or de jure NATO ally. Who asked them?
uf00lme 4y ago
I don’t understand this logic. I don’t see how an ‘if’ Ukraine joined nato and a ‘maybe’ it might give NATO an advantage over Russia is better then war now. I don’t see how something that is a known horror for all involved, is better than something that ‘could be’ worse maybe one day. The only unknown currently is how much more horrific it will become and how long it will go for. Generations of hatred have been sown already. There was definitely ways to appease each side prior to war, eg integrating Russia’s economy and energy grid further into Europe and the west. This was a terrible failure of diplomacy that built up over decades. Now that all involved are getting more experienced at warfare it will just promote deadlier warfare, ai controlled weapons etc etc. I’m completely losing faith in humanity, it unbelievable sad what’s happening.
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  I wholeheartedly agree with you - the current war is the result of decades of mistrust, hostility and grandstanding, from both sides of the conflict (NATO and Russia). It is the worse of all possible outcomes, and puts us closer than ever to direct war between these two major nuclear powers. Assuming we didn't get there though, I think the only part of the calculation that you are missing is that the war is not a horror for Putin and his entourage, and neither for NATO leaders. It is a horror for the people of Ukraine, their army, and the Russian soldiers who actually have to fight it. The seeds of hatred will also prove to be a horror for the ordinary Russians who will suffer greatly in retaliation. Unfortunately, their leaders and ours will have probably been long dead after content, peaceful lives, uncaring of the harm they have caused.