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Google is "just a market job" yet it's interesting and will pay it's SRE engineers a compensation package which roughly equates to $200k if you're married (with

Google is "just a market job" yet it's interesting and will pay it's SRE engineers a compensation package which roughly equates to $200k if you're married (with children). Most start-ups in SF try to con you into filling the same role for $100k and subpar health insurance, plus at best 0.5% of the company, which will be diluted down to about 0.05% after 3 rounds of VC. At my last full-time job I fought hard for 2% of the YC2010 company and exchanged a disgracefully low salary for it. At some point I got tired of slaving away so that the "founders" of this start-up would become millionaires. That time was when I did the math and realized nothing anybody could do would make this company see more than a $20m exit meant I had a one in ten-thousand chance of seeing $400k after 4 years. So I quit and I expect to gross $200k over the next year while working roughly 1,200 hours. To work for a start-up is to be a sucker.

brok3nmachine 15y ago
Just sounds like it was a bad deal for you all around, not all start-ups are out to "sucker" employees. If you are making a disgracefully low salary, you should of been asking for sizable percentage of equity. And you really should have been insanely excited to work there, and not "slaving" away. I've been fortunate enough to work for some great start-ups. One paid me about 20% lower than market, but a couple years later I was able make 10x off my stock options. At another, I was able to cash out on some of my equity within a year, while making above market. Even if my options ended up being worth nothing, it was a very good decision for me. As an employee, the wealth of experience I gained from working at start-ups has actually doubled my market value within a very short time period.
abbasmehdi 15y ago
If you aspire to apply for YC one day then the network and connections there offer enormous value.
temphn 15y ago
goodweeds' HN profile: An old sysadmin going through a career change, spending most of my time learning Ruby, Rails and developing small niche websites as a way to fund my lifestyle of friends, family, outdoor exploration, and ganja. Disclosure: I suffer from Ultra-Radian Cycling Bi-Polar Disorder, and have a tendency to post stupid comments during swings that I later regret. I'm not quite sure how to fix this with software, yet. No comment on the second paragraph. But in all seriousness, a lifestyle of "friends, family, outdoor exploration, and ganja" may not be wholly compatible with the intensity required to build a successful startup. Given the gaudy valuations and acquisition prices of many YC startups, it might be useful for someone to estimate what the average, median, and max ROIs are for engineers joining YC startups before 10, 20, and 50 employees. Would not be surprised to see mean north of $200k, and median slightly lower. That's the risk profile people are looking for when they join a startup. Only pg could really do this calculation of course.
- goodweeds 15y ago
  You're half right. I'm more than happy to work myself for the bone, but I'm not willing to do it when I hold all the risk and others hold all of the upside. The thing about today's startups is that the founders hold zero risk, they get paid good salaries and they keep the lion's share of the company for themselves while asking their engineers to bleed for them in exchange for their table scraps. All in the name of "interesting projects" and "fun, exciting environments". I've sold one company, failed another, and am working on a third. Between consulting and full-time employment I've worked directly wit about 50 start-ups over the past 12 years. I know dozens of founders who are now millionaires, even two who are now hundred millionaires. Except for the fluke of associates I know who went through Google's IPO, and through Youtube's acquisitions, I only know about a handful of engineers who have become millionaires working for a startup.
  - temphn 15y ago
    > the founders hold zero risk There is zero evidence for this claim.
raarky 15y ago
I too share a similar story. I worked at an appealing start-up with solid angel funding as employee 1, and eventually got promised x% in options upon exit. ("Upon Exit" is essentially a giant carrot on a stick.) Whilst I had fun working there, later it became apparent that even if the company sold for 30m, in 3 years, I could earn that same amount in the contract market. When risk/reward is taken into acount, it was a pretty easy decision to leave. Money talks, bullshit walks

brok3nmachine 15y ago

Just sounds like it was a bad deal for you all around, not all start-ups are out to "sucker" employees. If you are making a disgracefully low salary, you should of been asking for sizable percentage of equity. And you really should have been insanely excited to work there, and not "slaving" away. I've been fortunate enough to work for some great start-ups. One paid me about 20% lower than market, but a couple years later I was able make 10x off my stock options. At another, I was able to cash out on some of my equity within a year, while making above market. Even if my options ended up being worth nothing, it was a very good decision for me. As an employee, the wealth of experience I gained from working at start-ups has actually doubled my market value within a very short time period.

abbasmehdi 15y ago

If you aspire to apply for YC one day then the network and connections there offer enormous value.

temphn 15y ago

goodweeds' HN profile: An old sysadmin going through a career change, spending most of my time learning Ruby, Rails and developing small niche websites as a way to fund my lifestyle of friends, family, outdoor exploration, and ganja. Disclosure: I suffer from Ultra-Radian Cycling Bi-Polar Disorder, and have a tendency to post stupid comments during swings that I later regret. I'm not quite sure how to fix this with software, yet. No comment on the second paragraph. But in all seriousness, a lifestyle of "friends, family, outdoor exploration, and ganja" may not be wholly compatible with the intensity required to build a successful startup. Given the gaudy valuations and acquisition prices of many YC startups, it might be useful for someone to estimate what the average, median, and max ROIs are for engineers joining YC startups before 10, 20, and 50 employees. Would not be surprised to see mean north of $200k, and median slightly lower. That's the risk profile people are looking for when they join a startup. Only pg could really do this calculation of course.

goodweeds 15y ago
You're half right. I'm more than happy to work myself for the bone, but I'm not willing to do it when I hold all the risk and others hold all of the upside. The thing about today's startups is that the founders hold zero risk, they get paid good salaries and they keep the lion's share of the company for themselves while asking their engineers to bleed for them in exchange for their table scraps. All in the name of "interesting projects" and "fun, exciting environments". I've sold one company, failed another, and am working on a third. Between consulting and full-time employment I've worked directly wit about 50 start-ups over the past 12 years. I know dozens of founders who are now millionaires, even two who are now hundred millionaires. Except for the fluke of associates I know who went through Google's IPO, and through Youtube's acquisitions, I only know about a handful of engineers who have become millionaires working for a startup.
- temphn 15y ago
  > the founders hold zero risk There is zero evidence for this claim.

raarky 15y ago

I too share a similar story. I worked at an appealing start-up with solid angel funding as employee 1, and eventually got promised x% in options upon exit. ("Upon Exit" is essentially a giant carrot on a stick.) Whilst I had fun working there, later it became apparent that even if the company sold for 30m, in 3 years, I could earn that same amount in the contract market. When risk/reward is taken into acount, it was a pretty easy decision to leave. Money talks, bullshit walks