5 ms·

Then you may have also missed the various responses to those criticisms and things that were done to address them.

bayindirh 4y ago
It's indeed possible, but during discussions (here and elsewhere) nobody have said something in the line of "Hey, you're telling this, but the idea behind this is documented there, go take a look". Instead I got angry answers about how systemd is much better than what came before it, and I'm telling these things because I'm used to old ways and just resisting change. The mailing lists I read also had the same echo chambers of finger pointing and blaming. Heck, I even read Lennart's blog w/o knowing the page is his, and thinking "He has a arrogant team, what kind of language is that?" Moreover, do I need to remind that one of the systemd developers has been suspended from contributing to kernel [0]? Does this signal a project which is giving due credit to criticisms directed to it? Again in the same article there a link to a mail message from Ingo Molnar [1], which openly says that systemd refuses to use existing infrastructure and does things their way, w/o listening the kernel developers' advice. As you know, kernel is not an important component of an OS, so a couple of devs can just ignore the maintainers of the platform which underpins their system, and creates the foundation for their software to exist. [0]: https://www.networkworld.com/article/2175826/linus-torvalds-suspends-key-linux-developer.html https://www.networkworld.com/article/2175826/linus-torvalds-... [1]: https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01727.html https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01727.html
- Crysstalis 4y ago
  >The mailing lists I read also had the same echo chambers of finger pointing and blaming. That sounds about the same as every open source mailing list I have ever seen, like every single day on lkml. If you have a question about documentation, you can ask it again to someone else, if you didn't get a response the first time. If you are talking about the systemd mailing list, I have seen Lennart respond informatively to plenty of user questions. >Moreover, do I need to remind No, please do not. You don't need to, I am not interested to re-read the same 8 year old flamewars that were spammed on lwn and slashdot. Please do not beat this dead horse anymore. If you really think that this finger pointing and blaming is a problem, then I ask you please do your part and don't keep digging up these old petty arguments which is also just more pointing the finger and blaming. If you do have a concern that is still active now we can discuss that.
  - bayindirh 4y ago
    > That sounds about the same as every open source mailing list I have ever seen... On the other hand, this doesn't mirror my experience in the mailing lists, incl. debian-devel, which is one of the heaviest mailing lists I have ever participated, and still streamed to my own Inbox, everyday. > No, please do not. You don't need to, I am not interested to re-read the same 8 year old flamewars that were spammed on lwn and slashdot. The link I shared was 'The official kernel mailing list", and the person who wrote the mail is a Kernel maintainer. Clicking is your choice, though. > If you really think that this finger pointing and blaming is a problem, then I ask you please do your part and don't keep digging up these old petty arguments which is also just more pointing the finger and blaming. I'm not blaming people. I'm just linking to a happened event. I say that I don't like the tone of the maintainers, and showing that I am not alone. Are you trying to say that you know (or one of) these people, and they don't want to remember these things, because they feel bad about these events? If the answer is yes, it means they (or you) have learnt a valuable lesson. I have gone through that too, and I strive for being a kinder person when I need to handle a situation where somebody is doing something wrong. Look, we are all human, we make mistakes, and this includes me. Accepting this and moving forward is a virtue, but being stubborn, or at least not accepting our mistakes just keeps us at where we are. Again, my intention is not blaming, and I am not writing this with anger. This language is not my native language, and if something I wrote is explicitly or implicitly rude, please quote and tell me. I am ready to face that. > If you do have a concern that is still active now we can discuss that. The criticisms I shared as a comment are still valid. Do you want me to carry them to mailing lists and start another flame war? I thought we had enough of these, and you just asked me to stop beating dead horses. Also, please read the guidelines[0] of this site about commenting, language, tone and general behavior. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - Crysstalis 4y ago
      >On the other hand, this doesn't mirror my experience in the mailing lists, incl. debian-devel, which is one of the heaviest mailing lists I have ever participated, You may be filtering them, because I have seen a ton of flamewars on the debian mailing lists. Almost as many to rival lkml. >The link I shared was 'The official kernel mailing list", and the person who wrote the mail is a Kernel maintainer. I have read a countless number of flamewars from various maintainers on lkml including each of the ones you're sharing, I don't feel I need to read them again, sorry. >Are you trying to say that you know (or one of) these people, and they don't want to remember these things, because they feel bad about these events? No, I don't know any of these people personally. I am saying I would rather not remember these things because they are not an effective use of my time. It was also not an effective use of my time to pay attention to this when it happened originally, it is none of my business whether some other developers have some personal issues between each other. >The criticisms I shared as a comment are still valid. Do you want me to carry them to mailing lists and start another flame war? No. I would ask that you rephrase your comments to be less accusatory, and do your part to not start another flame war or revive an old one. Perhaps the reason you are not getting positive responses may be because your tone is causing other people to become defensive. I understand english is not your first language. Just make a small list of the problems you're having, do not make it about "refuting" something anyone else has said and do not make generalizations about other people. A simple way to do it is like this: "I can't do A, it's hard for me to do B, it crashes when I do C" and so on. Only mention issues that you personally can attest to first-hand, avoid discussing rumors and do not say things like "I heard A, I read B, someone told me C". That is not the way to problem solve. Does that sound good? >Also, please read the guidelines[0] of this site about commenting, language, tone and general behavior. I have read them, I would prefer that you please do not link to outside messages featuring these flamewars from other forums which have much more relaxed requirements about tone, language and behavior. This a technical way to evade the guidelines even though it would be inappropriate to post those type of comments on HN. Many of the insulting, derogatory or passive-aggressive comments from lkml maintainers (including from Mr. Torvalds himself) would get you ban here but for some reason people think it's appropriate to keep re-posting links to them. I really don't think it is.

It's indeed possible, but during discussions (here and elsewhere) nobody have said something in the line of "Hey, you're telling this, but the idea behind this is documented there, go take a look". Instead I got angry answers about how systemd is much better than what came before it, and I'm telling these things because I'm used to old ways and just resisting change. The mailing lists I read also had the same echo chambers of finger pointing and blaming. Heck, I even read Lennart's blog w/o knowing the page is his, and thinking "He has a arrogant team, what kind of language is that?" Moreover, do I need to remind that one of the systemd developers has been suspended from contributing to kernel [0]? Does this signal a project which is giving due credit to criticisms directed to it? Again in the same article there a link to a mail message from Ingo Molnar [1], which openly says that systemd refuses to use existing infrastructure and does things their way, w/o listening the kernel developers' advice. As you know, kernel is not an important component of an OS, so a couple of devs can just ignore the maintainers of the platform which underpins their system, and creates the foundation for their software to exist. [0]: https://www.networkworld.com/article/2175826/linus-torvalds-suspends-key-linux-developer.html https://www.networkworld.com/article/2175826/linus-torvalds-... [1]: https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01727.html https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01727.html

Crysstalis 4y ago
>The mailing lists I read also had the same echo chambers of finger pointing and blaming. That sounds about the same as every open source mailing list I have ever seen, like every single day on lkml. If you have a question about documentation, you can ask it again to someone else, if you didn't get a response the first time. If you are talking about the systemd mailing list, I have seen Lennart respond informatively to plenty of user questions. >Moreover, do I need to remind No, please do not. You don't need to, I am not interested to re-read the same 8 year old flamewars that were spammed on lwn and slashdot. Please do not beat this dead horse anymore. If you really think that this finger pointing and blaming is a problem, then I ask you please do your part and don't keep digging up these old petty arguments which is also just more pointing the finger and blaming. If you do have a concern that is still active now we can discuss that.
- bayindirh 4y ago
  > That sounds about the same as every open source mailing list I have ever seen... On the other hand, this doesn't mirror my experience in the mailing lists, incl. debian-devel, which is one of the heaviest mailing lists I have ever participated, and still streamed to my own Inbox, everyday. > No, please do not. You don't need to, I am not interested to re-read the same 8 year old flamewars that were spammed on lwn and slashdot. The link I shared was 'The official kernel mailing list", and the person who wrote the mail is a Kernel maintainer. Clicking is your choice, though. > If you really think that this finger pointing and blaming is a problem, then I ask you please do your part and don't keep digging up these old petty arguments which is also just more pointing the finger and blaming. I'm not blaming people. I'm just linking to a happened event. I say that I don't like the tone of the maintainers, and showing that I am not alone. Are you trying to say that you know (or one of) these people, and they don't want to remember these things, because they feel bad about these events? If the answer is yes, it means they (or you) have learnt a valuable lesson. I have gone through that too, and I strive for being a kinder person when I need to handle a situation where somebody is doing something wrong. Look, we are all human, we make mistakes, and this includes me. Accepting this and moving forward is a virtue, but being stubborn, or at least not accepting our mistakes just keeps us at where we are. Again, my intention is not blaming, and I am not writing this with anger. This language is not my native language, and if something I wrote is explicitly or implicitly rude, please quote and tell me. I am ready to face that. > If you do have a concern that is still active now we can discuss that. The criticisms I shared as a comment are still valid. Do you want me to carry them to mailing lists and start another flame war? I thought we had enough of these, and you just asked me to stop beating dead horses. Also, please read the guidelines[0] of this site about commenting, language, tone and general behavior. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - Crysstalis 4y ago
    >On the other hand, this doesn't mirror my experience in the mailing lists, incl. debian-devel, which is one of the heaviest mailing lists I have ever participated, You may be filtering them, because I have seen a ton of flamewars on the debian mailing lists. Almost as many to rival lkml. >The link I shared was 'The official kernel mailing list", and the person who wrote the mail is a Kernel maintainer. I have read a countless number of flamewars from various maintainers on lkml including each of the ones you're sharing, I don't feel I need to read them again, sorry. >Are you trying to say that you know (or one of) these people, and they don't want to remember these things, because they feel bad about these events? No, I don't know any of these people personally. I am saying I would rather not remember these things because they are not an effective use of my time. It was also not an effective use of my time to pay attention to this when it happened originally, it is none of my business whether some other developers have some personal issues between each other. >The criticisms I shared as a comment are still valid. Do you want me to carry them to mailing lists and start another flame war? No. I would ask that you rephrase your comments to be less accusatory, and do your part to not start another flame war or revive an old one. Perhaps the reason you are not getting positive responses may be because your tone is causing other people to become defensive. I understand english is not your first language. Just make a small list of the problems you're having, do not make it about "refuting" something anyone else has said and do not make generalizations about other people. A simple way to do it is like this: "I can't do A, it's hard for me to do B, it crashes when I do C" and so on. Only mention issues that you personally can attest to first-hand, avoid discussing rumors and do not say things like "I heard A, I read B, someone told me C". That is not the way to problem solve. Does that sound good? >Also, please read the guidelines[0] of this site about commenting, language, tone and general behavior. I have read them, I would prefer that you please do not link to outside messages featuring these flamewars from other forums which have much more relaxed requirements about tone, language and behavior. This a technical way to evade the guidelines even though it would be inappropriate to post those type of comments on HN. Many of the insulting, derogatory or passive-aggressive comments from lkml maintainers (including from Mr. Torvalds himself) would get you ban here but for some reason people think it's appropriate to keep re-posting links to them. I really don't think it is.