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So what's the strategy moving forward? The operation clearly hasn't permanently solved crime, the next generation of organized crime bosses won't trust any apps

So what's the strategy moving forward? The operation clearly hasn't permanently solved crime, the next generation of organized crime bosses won't trust any apps to handle their secrets, so I guess their communication just moves offline again? Or maybe each develops their own methods in house that they know they can trust (such as shooting holes in a wall on call of duty)?

phendrenad2 4y ago
In my opinion the goal is similar to the MPAA's goals with movie piracy: Make it harder, and many people will stop doing it. Ultimately, that is what banks do when they put money into vaults. Someone could still steal the money, but it's insanely difficult.
- soulofmischief 4y ago
  But in many cases, movie piracy is faster, more convenient and more agreeable than consuming through locked down ad funnels like Netflix or Disney+ which don't let me outright own the content or the viewing experience, or Blu-rays which enforce DRM and specific region-locked devices.
  - phendrenad2 4y ago
    You're the pirate equivalent of a master jewel thief. "It's so easy! Just hotwire the security system, dance through the laser field, duh!" It's stochastic. They want to cut out casual piracy, those of us who know how to pirate are acceptable losses.
    - soulofmischief 4y ago
      I'm speaking on the UX involved in the process. If you can understand the technology at a working level (about as difficult as learning to install a browser or email client) then you have access to an ecosystem that prizes discoverability and lack of friction. There aren't laser fields. There's a directory and concierge. A full back-catalogue. A social network. Most importantly, the viewing experience is consistent across all media, your media viewer of choice, without the need for a constant internet connection. Just like it used to be. I don't encourage rampant piracy, but I certainly understand when some people don't have the luxury of purchasing an unlocked blu-ray ripper and storing old blu-rays in order to get the same viewing experience. Another good example is old games like NOLF which are entirely unplayable today without piracy. Pirated releases often contain much smaller download sizes as well as patches to enhance or correct the experience. Pirating won't convince companies to change, so I vote with my wallet by trying to avoid purchasing media which has unacceptable licensing terms or pervasive DRM, and purchasing any media which I think integrates my values. I also only purchase on platforms which prize discoverability, such as GOG or Steam, while avoiding locked-down platforms like Origin or Epic Games store.
tablespoon 4y ago
> So what's the strategy moving forward? The operation clearly hasn't permanently solved crime, the next generation of organized crime bosses won't trust any apps to handle their secrets, so I guess their communication just moves offline again? Or maybe each develops their own methods in house that they know they can trust (such as shooting holes in a wall on call of duty)? Maybe the strategy is just "get the win now, and tomorrow's another day." A lot of people seem to think it's a bad idea to use some technique that will motivate a counter-technique , like that counter-technique can be prevented by not using the technique (it comes up a lot when sanctions are discussed). However that's flawed assumption. Sometimes sitting on a technique will mean it becomes obsolete before you can realize advantage from it, and it's actually smarter to try capture that advantage while you still can. Also, if organized crime stops trusting apps and goes back offline for communication, it could become far less efficient/effective, which would be a win for law enforcement. Also, a sucker is born every minute. Maybe the Mob will shy away from encrypted apps due to institutional memory, but some upstart criminal orgs without that memory may still adopt "FBI 'Encrypted' Messenger 2.0."
rmbyrro 4y ago
The goal is not to end organized crime for all eternity. It's to arrest as many criminals as they can today. Tomorrow they'll think of a carrier pigeon spy.
kube-system 4y ago
Making crime more difficult to get away with is a deterrent to participating in crome.
armchairhacker 4y ago
> the next generation of organized crime bosses won't trust any apps to handle their secrets, so I guess their communication just moves offline again? Or maybe each develops their own methods in house that they know they can trust (such as shooting holes in a wall on call of duty)? Organized crime is smart but even smart people can be dumb. They were dumb for trusting a random app and not using in-house or at least looking at the source code in the first place. And as someone else noted, if they just decide to go completely online that’s going to be much harder
asdff 4y ago
People who seriously need communications hidden are probably using espionage type tactics already. Put out a benign signal out in the public realm someplace, but your agents have the secret key that turns that seemingly irrelevant signal into an actionable message. Number stations are the famous example (1), but lets think in terms of 2022. Imagine you had an instagram page that posted a certain meme of interest at a particular time as the signal, for instance. Or a seemingly automatic discord bot operation. Or a reddit bot coming in at a certain time to automatically correct a common typo. Anything could be used as a signal. This form of communication imo is impossible to prevent by virtue of that, and people would be wise to use it if they are speaking of things that require such protections. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_station

phendrenad2 4y ago

In my opinion the goal is similar to the MPAA's goals with movie piracy: Make it harder, and many people will stop doing it. Ultimately, that is what banks do when they put money into vaults. Someone could still steal the money, but it's insanely difficult.

soulofmischief 4y ago
But in many cases, movie piracy is faster, more convenient and more agreeable than consuming through locked down ad funnels like Netflix or Disney+ which don't let me outright own the content or the viewing experience, or Blu-rays which enforce DRM and specific region-locked devices.
- phendrenad2 4y ago
  You're the pirate equivalent of a master jewel thief. "It's so easy! Just hotwire the security system, dance through the laser field, duh!" It's stochastic. They want to cut out casual piracy, those of us who know how to pirate are acceptable losses.
  - soulofmischief 4y ago
    I'm speaking on the UX involved in the process. If you can understand the technology at a working level (about as difficult as learning to install a browser or email client) then you have access to an ecosystem that prizes discoverability and lack of friction. There aren't laser fields. There's a directory and concierge. A full back-catalogue. A social network. Most importantly, the viewing experience is consistent across all media, your media viewer of choice, without the need for a constant internet connection. Just like it used to be. I don't encourage rampant piracy, but I certainly understand when some people don't have the luxury of purchasing an unlocked blu-ray ripper and storing old blu-rays in order to get the same viewing experience. Another good example is old games like NOLF which are entirely unplayable today without piracy. Pirated releases often contain much smaller download sizes as well as patches to enhance or correct the experience. Pirating won't convince companies to change, so I vote with my wallet by trying to avoid purchasing media which has unacceptable licensing terms or pervasive DRM, and purchasing any media which I think integrates my values. I also only purchase on platforms which prize discoverability, such as GOG or Steam, while avoiding locked-down platforms like Origin or Epic Games store.

tablespoon 4y ago

> So what's the strategy moving forward? The operation clearly hasn't permanently solved crime, the next generation of organized crime bosses won't trust any apps to handle their secrets, so I guess their communication just moves offline again? Or maybe each develops their own methods in house that they know they can trust (such as shooting holes in a wall on call of duty)? Maybe the strategy is just "get the win now, and tomorrow's another day." A lot of people seem to think it's a bad idea to use some technique that will motivate a counter-technique , like that counter-technique can be prevented by not using the technique (it comes up a lot when sanctions are discussed). However that's flawed assumption. Sometimes sitting on a technique will mean it becomes obsolete before you can realize advantage from it, and it's actually smarter to try capture that advantage while you still can. Also, if organized crime stops trusting apps and goes back offline for communication, it could become far less efficient/effective, which would be a win for law enforcement. Also, a sucker is born every minute. Maybe the Mob will shy away from encrypted apps due to institutional memory, but some upstart criminal orgs without that memory may still adopt "FBI 'Encrypted' Messenger 2.0."

rmbyrro 4y ago

The goal is not to end organized crime for all eternity. It's to arrest as many criminals as they can today. Tomorrow they'll think of a carrier pigeon spy.

kube-system 4y ago

Making crime more difficult to get away with is a deterrent to participating in crome.

armchairhacker 4y ago

> the next generation of organized crime bosses won't trust any apps to handle their secrets, so I guess their communication just moves offline again? Or maybe each develops their own methods in house that they know they can trust (such as shooting holes in a wall on call of duty)? Organized crime is smart but even smart people can be dumb. They were dumb for trusting a random app and not using in-house or at least looking at the source code in the first place. And as someone else noted, if they just decide to go completely online that’s going to be much harder

asdff 4y ago

People who seriously need communications hidden are probably using espionage type tactics already. Put out a benign signal out in the public realm someplace, but your agents have the secret key that turns that seemingly irrelevant signal into an actionable message. Number stations are the famous example (1), but lets think in terms of 2022. Imagine you had an instagram page that posted a certain meme of interest at a particular time as the signal, for instance. Or a seemingly automatic discord bot operation. Or a reddit bot coming in at a certain time to automatically correct a common typo. Anything could be used as a signal. This form of communication imo is impossible to prevent by virtue of that, and people would be wise to use it if they are speaking of things that require such protections. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_station