5 ms·

Violation of ToS does not mean a violation of the law.

CoastalCoder 4y ago
I don't think I know the answer, but I'm curious: Does violating a website's TOS meant your accessing it beyond your authority, making it a violation of the US's Computer Fraud and Abuse Act?
- zja 4y ago
  Violating TOS no; Gaining access beyond your authority maybe https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/07/court-violating-terms-service-not-crime-bypassing https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/07/court-violating-terms-...
  - CoastalCoder 4y ago
    I was assuming that in this case, a person's authority was specifically granted by the ToS. I wondered if the interplay of those two concepts muddied the waters.
- danaris 4y ago
  I don't have a source for this, but my recollection is that this has been successfully argued by a couple of companies—but then an appeals court found very firmly that it was not the case. Essentially, having that be true would mean that any given website could create whole new classes of criminal behavior.
  - zinekeller 4y ago
    > having that be true would mean that any given website could create whole new classes of criminal behavior. While this is true, reading the lawsuit it is clear that Meta is suing in civil court, so maybe they're trying to enforce their contract, especially their automated collection ToS (https://www.facebook.com/apps/site_scraping_tos_terms.php https://www.facebook.com/apps/site_scraping_tos_terms.php)?
- tumult 4y ago
  Not a violation. Decided by Supreme Court in 2021. Van Buren vs. United States. It was a big deal.
closewith 4y ago
Most law suits aren't due to breaches of the law, but breaches of contract. Whether terms of service constitute an enforceable contact is another matter.
- jhoelzel 4y ago
  if a bot creates the account, who breaches the contract?
  - sneak 4y ago
    The person who ran the bot. Programs do not have agency, they are just tools. That's like saying "If the gun fires the bullet, who is liable for murder?" It's a silly question.
    - CSMastermind 4y ago
      > That's like saying "If the gun fires the bullet, who is liable for murder?" It's a silly question. I don't know I've seen several people unironically argue that it should be the gun's manufacturer.
      - lesuorac 4y ago
        Probably should also add "successfully", there's a reason NYPD had/has guns that require 12 pounds of force to pull the trigger (instead of a normal ~5 lbs).
      - bee_rider 4y ago
        Software that exclusively has illegitimate uses has been shut down. Whether we agree that it is a good argument or not, it is definitely an argument people have made (that some types of guns are mainly designed to hurt people). With software of course it is a little complicated because: * it can be produced really easily in a distributed fashion over the internet by anonymous people in many jurisdictions, so there isn't always an obvious company or entity to sue * most automation tools can be repurposed for malicious use (nobody would sue John Deere because their tractors can be armored and turned into pseudo-tank things)
stonemetal12 4y ago
That is why they are suing rather than pressing charges. When someone steals your car you don't sue them you press charges. When someone doesn't uphold their end of a contract you don't press charges you sue for breach of contract.
- compsciphd 4y ago
  in reality, you as an individual can't press charges. Only the state can. And many times the state chooses not to. You can sue in civil court, but individuals can't bring cases in criminal court.
  - closewith 4y ago
    Many countries do have the concept of private criminal prosecutions.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - onionisafruit 4y ago
    You are confusing pressing charges and indictment. Pressing charges just means you accuse somebody of a crime and “press” the prosecutor to indict them. So the state does have the ultimate say on who is prosecuted, but that doesn’t mean you can’t press charges.
- sneak 4y ago
  "pressing charges" isn't a thing.
  - onionisafruit 4y ago
    It is a thing. In America pressing charges is when you accuse somebody of a crime and ask a prosecutor to bring criminal charges against them.
    - sneak 4y ago

I don't think I know the answer, but I'm curious: Does violating a website's TOS meant your accessing it beyond your authority, making it a violation of the US's Computer Fraud and Abuse Act?

zja 4y ago
Violating TOS no; Gaining access beyond your authority maybe https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/07/court-violating-terms-service-not-crime-bypassing https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/07/court-violating-terms-...
- CoastalCoder 4y ago
  I was assuming that in this case, a person's authority was specifically granted by the ToS. I wondered if the interplay of those two concepts muddied the waters.
danaris 4y ago
I don't have a source for this, but my recollection is that this has been successfully argued by a couple of companies—but then an appeals court found very firmly that it was not the case. Essentially, having that be true would mean that any given website could create whole new classes of criminal behavior.
- zinekeller 4y ago
  > having that be true would mean that any given website could create whole new classes of criminal behavior. While this is true, reading the lawsuit it is clear that Meta is suing in civil court, so maybe they're trying to enforce their contract, especially their automated collection ToS (https://www.facebook.com/apps/site_scraping_tos_terms.php https://www.facebook.com/apps/site_scraping_tos_terms.php)?
tumult 4y ago
Not a violation. Decided by Supreme Court in 2021. Van Buren vs. United States. It was a big deal.

closewith 4y ago

Most law suits aren't due to breaches of the law, but breaches of contract. Whether terms of service constitute an enforceable contact is another matter.

jhoelzel 4y ago
if a bot creates the account, who breaches the contract?
- sneak 4y ago
  The person who ran the bot. Programs do not have agency, they are just tools. That's like saying "If the gun fires the bullet, who is liable for murder?" It's a silly question.
  - CSMastermind 4y ago
    > That's like saying "If the gun fires the bullet, who is liable for murder?" It's a silly question. I don't know I've seen several people unironically argue that it should be the gun's manufacturer.
    - lesuorac 4y ago
      Probably should also add "successfully", there's a reason NYPD had/has guns that require 12 pounds of force to pull the trigger (instead of a normal ~5 lbs).
    - bee_rider 4y ago
      Software that exclusively has illegitimate uses has been shut down. Whether we agree that it is a good argument or not, it is definitely an argument people have made (that some types of guns are mainly designed to hurt people). With software of course it is a little complicated because: * it can be produced really easily in a distributed fashion over the internet by anonymous people in many jurisdictions, so there isn't always an obvious company or entity to sue * most automation tools can be repurposed for malicious use (nobody would sue John Deere because their tractors can be armored and turned into pseudo-tank things)

stonemetal12 4y ago

That is why they are suing rather than pressing charges. When someone steals your car you don't sue them you press charges. When someone doesn't uphold their end of a contract you don't press charges you sue for breach of contract.

compsciphd 4y ago
in reality, you as an individual can't press charges. Only the state can. And many times the state chooses not to. You can sue in civil court, but individuals can't bring cases in criminal court.
- closewith 4y ago
  Many countries do have the concept of private criminal prosecutions.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- onionisafruit 4y ago
  You are confusing pressing charges and indictment. Pressing charges just means you accuse somebody of a crime and “press” the prosecutor to indict them. So the state does have the ultimate say on who is prosecuted, but that doesn’t mean you can’t press charges.
sneak 4y ago
"pressing charges" isn't a thing.
- onionisafruit 4y ago
  It is a thing. In America pressing charges is when you accuse somebody of a crime and ask a prosecutor to bring criminal charges against them.
  - sneak 4y ago