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You're missing it. Without a communications link, satellites and space vehicles cease to exist. The only value they provide is via wireless signal links back to

You're missing it. Without a communications link, satellites and space vehicles cease to exist. The only value they provide is via wireless signal links back to us. All space problems are communications security problems of confidentiality, integrity, and most importantly, availability. Denial and disruption of space communications is the threat to all vehicles. Interception reaps any benfit they provide back without the investment in sending them out there. The only sovereignty we have in an age of space economics and risk comes from cryptography. What, did you think our plan was to spend all this money just to figure out a way to bash them together? Like, rocks?

01100011 4y ago
Nah. It's easy to envision fully autonomous vessels in space which function fine without a communications link. In fact, that's probably the most desirable type of craft, one that isn't hampered by delays in communication and can respond quickly to dynamic situations.
- Teever 4y ago
  But how can you ensure that it is operating in an autonomous fashion for you as opposed to someone else who has commandeered it whether through physical force cyber means?
  - Retric 4y ago
    So your hypothetical adversary is getting physical access to satellites in orbit to remotely disassemble them and then put them back together after swapping hardware. How exactly do you think this is remotely cost effective? Really the best defense is to spend less than 1/10th as much and launch a new satellite.
    - motohagiography 4y ago
      https://www.afrl.af.mil/News/Article/3002762/space-security-challenge-2022-hack-a-sat-3-registration-opens/ https://www.afrl.af.mil/News/Article/3002762/space-security-...
      - Retric 4y ago
        Which is somehow different than protecting a random website because it’s in space space space. Or wait no it's not.
    - Teever 4y ago
      OP was describing a future where resources are being mined in space and returned to earth,. That is a future where people will have the means to build industrial capacity beyond the orbit of earth which means that infrastructure could be contracted out for surreptitious proposes. All it takes is one rogue self replicating asteroid miner...
      - Retric 4y ago
        Asteroid mining in 50 years is also the least realistic thing he said. 50 years ago we had already been to the moon, and now people are talking about the possibility that we might at some point go back a few years from now. Now you want to add self replicating robots on that timescale... Why not time travel and FTL while you’re at it.
        Teever 4y ago
        Have you been paying attention to what SpaceX is doing with Starship? Things are developing far faster than you think.
- tagami 4y ago
  https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/104539/x-37b-orbital-test-vehicle/ https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/1045...
- ithkuil 4y ago
  It really depends what's the purpose of the satellite. I think the assumption here is that most of the added value of having a satellite in the first place is through the services it delivers through the communication link (imagery, communication relay, ...)
throwntoday 4y ago
I think you're overstating the importance of satellites. GPS is probably the only useful satellite for the majority of the world, and it is an unencrypted, one-way signal.
- bruce511 4y ago
  Let's split this into military, and non military use. Non military is GPS sure, but also weather, communications and entertainment. As well as a bunch of internet, a segment that is likely to grow a lot in the near future. So, non-militarily it's likely that average Joe makes direct use of satilite tech multiple times per day for different reasons. For the military there's also GPS, communications and reconnaissance. All key features of any mission. So yeah, these things are super important. Now whether this means a "space force" I'd needed or not is debatable. I'd say not, it seems to me this is a computer issue not a location issue. Attacks on these resources are likely to be cyber in nature, not physical. Physically harming satillites pollutes the area for all players. On the other hand taking control of a working satilite delivers huge gains for basically no construction or launch costs.
  - throwntoday 4y ago
    Again I think you're overstating their importance. Less people are using satellite TV everyday thanks to streaming. Satellite internet is such a miniscule percentage of internet use it might as well be a rounding error. I don't doubt that will change but it will always be a fraction of the market. As far as military goes, the US armed forces are insanely overpowered. None of that has to do with satellites. There could be a solar flare that knocks out every electronic device and we would still be on top. It is also highly unlikely the US will ever officially be at war again. Congress would get eaten alive by their constituents. The military exists purely as a show of force, and a means of siphoning away taxpayer money forever.
    - beebeepka 4y ago
      Purely show of force, huh? Must be a fairly recent development.

01100011 4y ago

Nah. It's easy to envision fully autonomous vessels in space which function fine without a communications link. In fact, that's probably the most desirable type of craft, one that isn't hampered by delays in communication and can respond quickly to dynamic situations.

Teever 4y ago
But how can you ensure that it is operating in an autonomous fashion for you as opposed to someone else who has commandeered it whether through physical force cyber means?
- Retric 4y ago
  So your hypothetical adversary is getting physical access to satellites in orbit to remotely disassemble them and then put them back together after swapping hardware. How exactly do you think this is remotely cost effective? Really the best defense is to spend less than 1/10th as much and launch a new satellite.
  - motohagiography 4y ago
    https://www.afrl.af.mil/News/Article/3002762/space-security-challenge-2022-hack-a-sat-3-registration-opens/ https://www.afrl.af.mil/News/Article/3002762/space-security-...
    - Retric 4y ago
      Which is somehow different than protecting a random website because it’s in space space space. Or wait no it's not.
  - Teever 4y ago
    OP was describing a future where resources are being mined in space and returned to earth,. That is a future where people will have the means to build industrial capacity beyond the orbit of earth which means that infrastructure could be contracted out for surreptitious proposes. All it takes is one rogue self replicating asteroid miner...
    - Retric 4y ago
      Asteroid mining in 50 years is also the least realistic thing he said. 50 years ago we had already been to the moon, and now people are talking about the possibility that we might at some point go back a few years from now. Now you want to add self replicating robots on that timescale... Why not time travel and FTL while you’re at it.
      - Teever 4y ago
        Have you been paying attention to what SpaceX is doing with Starship? Things are developing far faster than you think.
tagami 4y ago
https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/104539/x-37b-orbital-test-vehicle/ https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/1045...
ithkuil 4y ago
It really depends what's the purpose of the satellite. I think the assumption here is that most of the added value of having a satellite in the first place is through the services it delivers through the communication link (imagery, communication relay, ...)

throwntoday 4y ago

I think you're overstating the importance of satellites. GPS is probably the only useful satellite for the majority of the world, and it is an unencrypted, one-way signal.

bruce511 4y ago
Let's split this into military, and non military use. Non military is GPS sure, but also weather, communications and entertainment. As well as a bunch of internet, a segment that is likely to grow a lot in the near future. So, non-militarily it's likely that average Joe makes direct use of satilite tech multiple times per day for different reasons. For the military there's also GPS, communications and reconnaissance. All key features of any mission. So yeah, these things are super important. Now whether this means a "space force" I'd needed or not is debatable. I'd say not, it seems to me this is a computer issue not a location issue. Attacks on these resources are likely to be cyber in nature, not physical. Physically harming satillites pollutes the area for all players. On the other hand taking control of a working satilite delivers huge gains for basically no construction or launch costs.
- throwntoday 4y ago
  Again I think you're overstating their importance. Less people are using satellite TV everyday thanks to streaming. Satellite internet is such a miniscule percentage of internet use it might as well be a rounding error. I don't doubt that will change but it will always be a fraction of the market. As far as military goes, the US armed forces are insanely overpowered. None of that has to do with satellites. There could be a solar flare that knocks out every electronic device and we would still be on top. It is also highly unlikely the US will ever officially be at war again. Congress would get eaten alive by their constituents. The military exists purely as a show of force, and a means of siphoning away taxpayer money forever.
  - beebeepka 4y ago
    Purely show of force, huh? Must be a fairly recent development.