8 ms·

Do you have an example of something that does not work? I'm using Fedora 36 and everything that I can think of works well.

by drdo 4y ago

vetinari 4y ago
At this point, we are talking about spacebar heating (https://xkcd.com/1172/ https://xkcd.com/1172/)
- pvorb 4y ago
  Possibly the situation is better today and it might be even better once GTK5 will make it to end users. But if Wayland folks think that having two external displays and screen sharing is an esoteric workflow, I know that my decision was correct.
  - kaba0 4y ago
    What gives you the impression they think that? There is quite a lot going on before your google meets displays a popup of what you want to share and the display manager initiating screen sharing. For what it worth, Wayland has really good externel screen support (mixed-DPI even), so it is likely just a not-yet-supported feature, nothing inherently problematic.
  - vetinari 4y ago
    > two external displays and screen sharing is an esoteric workflow that one works better with wayland than with x11. Especially if the monitors are different dpi.
  - horsawlarway 4y ago
    I don't understand this comment - I have to assume you haven't used it at all (or at least several years). Multiple external displays works MILES better on wayland - I can set proper scaling ratios set on each screen, which is basically a requirement for a modern laptop with external monitors. No more "This window opened on my laptop screen and will be HUGE on the external monitors because the laptop was scaled for hidpi and the externals aren't". Now the issue is just limited to apps running in x-wayland, and I have close to zero apps that I care about running in x-wayland these days. Further - I get much more consistent external display output with Wayland. I plug the monitor in and it "just fucking works"tm. Screen sharing is a pain on basically every modern system - you're letting one application monitor and consume the output on another. Allowing this by default and with no user prompt is a fucking nightmare (and as much as people bitch about "but mah screen sharing!" - there's an equally vocal push from the "but mah system security!" crowd). Wayland struggled here for a bit, but it seems like covid finally pushed the right buttons to get this knocked out in most of the DEs I've used. All the major sharing platforms now seem to work - Slack/Discord/Zoom/Chrome/etc... Including sharing multiple displays now. So basically - fucking no one thinks this: "But if Wayland folks think that having two external displays and screen sharing is an esoteric workflow"
aidenn0 4y ago
I'm sure Wayland works in general, but every 6 months I try Wayland/KDE and I have yet to successfully start up the desktop.
- artogahr 4y ago
  Nvidia card?
  - aidenn0 4y ago
    yes. I've considered getting an rx-6400 to switch.
    - jeroenhd 4y ago
      For what it's worth, Wayland seems to work fine with the more recent proprietary Nvidia drivers released earlier this year. Mutter is still buggy on Nvidia but I believe KDE should work fine these days unless you're on a distro that doesn't have recent drivers.
      - aidenn0 4y ago
        With nvidia-binary version 515.48.07 on linux 5.15.50 it immediately crashes and restarts sddm With nouveau, it works for up to a minute before freezing and locking the GPU.
        jeroenhd 4y ago
        If the notes on the Arch wiki are anything to go by, SDDM doesn't support Wayland quite well. The issue tracker seems to agree: https://github.com/sddm/sddm/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+wayland https://github.com/sddm/sddm/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+w... I'm not so sure whether this is an nvidia issue or an SDDM issue.
        aidenn0 4y ago
        Tried it with lightdm (and just launching kde-plasma from a TTY) same result.
pvorb 4y ago
It's been a while. The last thing that was an absolute mess was screen sharing via Google Hangouts/Meet. You could share individual windows just fine, but I had two external displays attached to my notebook and wanted to share a single screen. It wouldn't work. You could only share both screens at once, so it was impossible for others to read anything. I think external displays in general had problems, but I don't remember many details. I had problems with my docking station under Wayland, scaling options that didn't work. And there was an issue when trying to re-order attached screens with the corresponding Gnome tool. I think this was on Ubuntu in 2018 or 2019, when they started giving you Wayland by default. But they soon learned that it just wasn't ready yet. Granted, some of those problems might have been caused by Gnome tools or Ubuntu or maybe even hardware drivers. But all of them were gone immediately once I switched back to X.
- drdo 4y ago
  Screen sharing definitely works on Chrome (webrtc), Zoom (desktop app) and Slack (desktop app or web) on my vanilla Fedora 36 setup.
  - pvorb 4y ago
    A pandemic might have helped here in prioritizing. ;-) But does it also work with multiple external displays? Because it worked on a single screen for me back then, too.
aordano 4y ago
X11 Keyboard extension system (which i need for my custom layout) is basically garbage on Wayland; some other extensions that are needed to enable small functions in other aspects (not just screen composition) also don't work or behave poorly outside X11. I really dislike X and i would ditch it in a heartbeat if a good alternative existed. I tried hard to love Wayland but it's just not there yet. I hope it will be sooner, debugging why my keyboard stopped working because a C header file changed slightly in a semi-unrelated package upgrade is very not fun, and yet that's the best there is.
magicalhippo 4y ago
As I mentioned in another comment[1]. I got credential errors accessing a Samba share using Wayland, worked fine with Xorg. No idea what Wayland has to do with Samba but I'm back to running Xorg yet again. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32007533 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32007533

Do you have an example of something that does not work? I'm using Fedora 36 and everything that I can think of works well.

by drdo 4y ago

Do you have an example of something that does not work? I'm using Fedora 36 and everything that I can think of works well.

vetinari 4y ago

At this point, we are talking about spacebar heating (https://xkcd.com/1172/ https://xkcd.com/1172/)

pvorb 4y ago
Possibly the situation is better today and it might be even better once GTK5 will make it to end users. But if Wayland folks think that having two external displays and screen sharing is an esoteric workflow, I know that my decision was correct.
- kaba0 4y ago
  What gives you the impression they think that? There is quite a lot going on before your google meets displays a popup of what you want to share and the display manager initiating screen sharing. For what it worth, Wayland has really good externel screen support (mixed-DPI even), so it is likely just a not-yet-supported feature, nothing inherently problematic.
- vetinari 4y ago
  > two external displays and screen sharing is an esoteric workflow that one works better with wayland than with x11. Especially if the monitors are different dpi.
- horsawlarway 4y ago
  I don't understand this comment - I have to assume you haven't used it at all (or at least several years). Multiple external displays works MILES better on wayland - I can set proper scaling ratios set on each screen, which is basically a requirement for a modern laptop with external monitors. No more "This window opened on my laptop screen and will be HUGE on the external monitors because the laptop was scaled for hidpi and the externals aren't". Now the issue is just limited to apps running in x-wayland, and I have close to zero apps that I care about running in x-wayland these days. Further - I get much more consistent external display output with Wayland. I plug the monitor in and it "just fucking works"tm. Screen sharing is a pain on basically every modern system - you're letting one application monitor and consume the output on another. Allowing this by default and with no user prompt is a fucking nightmare (and as much as people bitch about "but mah screen sharing!" - there's an equally vocal push from the "but mah system security!" crowd). Wayland struggled here for a bit, but it seems like covid finally pushed the right buttons to get this knocked out in most of the DEs I've used. All the major sharing platforms now seem to work - Slack/Discord/Zoom/Chrome/etc... Including sharing multiple displays now. So basically - fucking no one thinks this: "But if Wayland folks think that having two external displays and screen sharing is an esoteric workflow"

aidenn0 4y ago

I'm sure Wayland works in general, but every 6 months I try Wayland/KDE and I have yet to successfully start up the desktop.

artogahr 4y ago
Nvidia card?
- aidenn0 4y ago
  yes. I've considered getting an rx-6400 to switch.
  - jeroenhd 4y ago
    For what it's worth, Wayland seems to work fine with the more recent proprietary Nvidia drivers released earlier this year. Mutter is still buggy on Nvidia but I believe KDE should work fine these days unless you're on a distro that doesn't have recent drivers.
    - aidenn0 4y ago
      With nvidia-binary version 515.48.07 on linux 5.15.50 it immediately crashes and restarts sddm With nouveau, it works for up to a minute before freezing and locking the GPU.
      - jeroenhd 4y ago
        If the notes on the Arch wiki are anything to go by, SDDM doesn't support Wayland quite well. The issue tracker seems to agree: https://github.com/sddm/sddm/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+wayland https://github.com/sddm/sddm/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+w... I'm not so sure whether this is an nvidia issue or an SDDM issue.
        aidenn0 4y ago
        Tried it with lightdm (and just launching kde-plasma from a TTY) same result.

pvorb 4y ago

It's been a while. The last thing that was an absolute mess was screen sharing via Google Hangouts/Meet. You could share individual windows just fine, but I had two external displays attached to my notebook and wanted to share a single screen. It wouldn't work. You could only share both screens at once, so it was impossible for others to read anything. I think external displays in general had problems, but I don't remember many details. I had problems with my docking station under Wayland, scaling options that didn't work. And there was an issue when trying to re-order attached screens with the corresponding Gnome tool. I think this was on Ubuntu in 2018 or 2019, when they started giving you Wayland by default. But they soon learned that it just wasn't ready yet. Granted, some of those problems might have been caused by Gnome tools or Ubuntu or maybe even hardware drivers. But all of them were gone immediately once I switched back to X.

drdo 4y ago
Screen sharing definitely works on Chrome (webrtc), Zoom (desktop app) and Slack (desktop app or web) on my vanilla Fedora 36 setup.
- pvorb 4y ago
  A pandemic might have helped here in prioritizing. ;-) But does it also work with multiple external displays? Because it worked on a single screen for me back then, too.

aordano 4y ago

X11 Keyboard extension system (which i need for my custom layout) is basically garbage on Wayland; some other extensions that are needed to enable small functions in other aspects (not just screen composition) also don't work or behave poorly outside X11. I really dislike X and i would ditch it in a heartbeat if a good alternative existed. I tried hard to love Wayland but it's just not there yet. I hope it will be sooner, debugging why my keyboard stopped working because a C header file changed slightly in a semi-unrelated package upgrade is very not fun, and yet that's the best there is.

magicalhippo 4y ago

As I mentioned in another comment[1]. I got credential errors accessing a Samba share using Wayland, worked fine with Xorg. No idea what Wayland has to do with Samba but I'm back to running Xorg yet again. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32007533 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32007533