7 ms·

>I know the resurrection is a fact, and Watergate proved it to me. How? Because 12 men testified they had seen Jesus raised from the dead, then they proclaimed

by ornxka 4y ago

>I know the resurrection is a fact, and Watergate proved it to me. How? Because 12 men testified they had seen Jesus raised from the dead, then they proclaimed that truth for 40 years, never once denying it. Every one was beaten, tortured, stoned and put in prison. They would not have endured that if it weren't true. Watergate embroiled 12 of the most powerful men in the world-and they couldn't keep a lie for three weeks. You're telling me 12 apostles could keep a lie for 40 years? Absolutely impossible. - Charles Colson, advisor to Richard Nixon during the Watergate scandal

zionic 4y ago
- int_19h 4y ago
  Why leak it more than once, though? At this point, the facts are already well-established. It's just that we as a society apparently just don't care enough to hold our rulers accountable (with torches and pitchforks if necessary).
  - zionic 4y ago
    >people already know Do they, though? Most people don’t know shit outside their preferred news channel. Zoomers are faithfully recreating the boomer flaw via moderation so they have a nicely curated injection of sludge
- labster 4y ago
  Nah, it leaks. Besides the big leaks like Chelsea Manning, there are constant small leaks: things like anonymous sources to the papers, and via Congressmembers (who collectively leak like a sieve). A lot of that is intentional.
  - zionic 4y ago
    What’s the leak ratio? How many people go to work for the NSA/FBI/ATF every day? What percentage of them leak?
- connicpu 4y ago
  I think the perspective the people involved have matters a lot. If you just view what you're doing as your normal job, you don't even need to lie about what's going on, you just don't even talk about it because it's a mundane detail. When you conspire to do something everyone involved knows is illegal and wrong, your guilt weighs more heavily and you start slipping.
  - zionic 4y ago
    This. You clock in and clock out doing evil shit all day. Your mortgage backed by Americorp indirectly backed by the fed depends on you being a good goy and so what? You keep doing it to pay the bills.
- kmeisthax 4y ago
  ...and Chelsea Manning, and Julian Assange, and Mark Klein, and Leslie Cauley, and Russ Tice, and Clare Short, and[0][1]... [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance_disclosures_(2013–present)#Historical_context https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance_disclosure... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance_disclosures_(1970–2013)#2000s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance_disclosure...
  - zionic 4y ago
    Are you ironically linking government websites for satire purposes? Or what? You can’t possibly take Wikipedia seriously as a source of information on controversial figures. That would be the least charitable interpretation and violate HN rules
MisterBastahrd 4y ago
And that's why Jim Jones was truly God. Man got 900 people to literally drink the kool-aid.
- InitialLastName 4y ago
  > kool-aid. You say literally, but the Kraft Heinz company would like you to know that it definitely also might have been Flavor Aid.
  - MisterBastahrd 4y ago
    Makes sense. Socialists ain't got enough money for koolaid.
upwardbound 4y ago
There's a fringe hypothesis that historical Jesus (the human person behind the legends) survived crucifixion, perhaps aided by secretly-sympathetic guards, and was in a near-coma for 3 days in the tomb but then returned to alertness and was helped out of the tomb (perhaps by sympathetic guards). The Roman official who ordered Jesus' execution didn't really want him dead, so perhaps he gave off-the-books instructions to the guards that "if this person were to miraculously survive being crucified, and escaped his tomb in a few days, well there's nothing you could have done to stop a miracle. His tomb that of course is temperate and happens to have water supplies inside. There's nothing you could have done. Wink wink." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate%27s_court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate%27s_court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swoon_hypothesis#Supporting_arguments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swoon_hypothesis#Supporting_ar... "It was uncommon for a crucified healthy adult to die in the time described by the Gospels; the Gospel of Mark reports that Jesus was crucified at nine in the morning and died at three in the afternoon, or six hours after the crucifixion. ... The average time of suffering before death by crucifixion is claimed by some to have been observed to be 2–4 days. ... Modern scholarship has also cast some doubt on the generally agreed depiction of Jesus being nailed to a cross, as opposed to the more common method of having a victim's hands and feet being tied to a cross." If dying normally took 2-4 days, it's possible that a sympathetic guard could have declared him dead after only 6 hours on the cross (maybe after he first fell unconscious) and then transferred him to the tomb in the hopes that he might recover in the remaining 1.5-3.5 days, perhaps moistening his lips in the process. If Jesus were tied to the cross rather than nailed to it, there's really not any plausible thing that could have killed him in just 6 hours of mild to moderate blood loss + heat exhaustion. It's much more plausible that he would have fallen unconscious while maintaining a heartbeat and weak breathing. I used to be Christian and am now more of an agnostic who wants to believe in a benevolent God, and it would be really cool if something like this did happen. Maybe Jesus was just a person but a good one who tried to do good and got lucky through some series of events like this. I recently unfortunately had a loved one who went through the dying process in hospice care, and it was horrifying to watch, but it took multiple days, about 5 days, and 6 hours just isn't plausible. 6 hours on the cross + a recovery from near-death three days later in a cool tomb makes a lot of sense if someone gave him water on the way to the tomb. Or maybe the tomb had a hidden supply of water in it, like a puddle big enough to drink. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus
lisper 4y ago
Hard to tell if you or Charles Colson is/was being serious, but for the benefit of the many, many people who actually do believe this: there is not a single account of an apostle dying for their beliefs that was written by someone who 1) was contemporaneous with the apostles and 2) put their name to the account. All of the supposed first-hand accounts are anonymous.

by ornxka 4y ago

zionic 4y ago

int_19h 4y ago
Why leak it more than once, though? At this point, the facts are already well-established. It's just that we as a society apparently just don't care enough to hold our rulers accountable (with torches and pitchforks if necessary).
- zionic 4y ago
  >people already know Do they, though? Most people don’t know shit outside their preferred news channel. Zoomers are faithfully recreating the boomer flaw via moderation so they have a nicely curated injection of sludge
labster 4y ago
Nah, it leaks. Besides the big leaks like Chelsea Manning, there are constant small leaks: things like anonymous sources to the papers, and via Congressmembers (who collectively leak like a sieve). A lot of that is intentional.
- zionic 4y ago
  What’s the leak ratio? How many people go to work for the NSA/FBI/ATF every day? What percentage of them leak?
connicpu 4y ago
I think the perspective the people involved have matters a lot. If you just view what you're doing as your normal job, you don't even need to lie about what's going on, you just don't even talk about it because it's a mundane detail. When you conspire to do something everyone involved knows is illegal and wrong, your guilt weighs more heavily and you start slipping.
- zionic 4y ago
  This. You clock in and clock out doing evil shit all day. Your mortgage backed by Americorp indirectly backed by the fed depends on you being a good goy and so what? You keep doing it to pay the bills.
kmeisthax 4y ago
...and Chelsea Manning, and Julian Assange, and Mark Klein, and Leslie Cauley, and Russ Tice, and Clare Short, and[0][1]... [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance_disclosures_(2013–present)#Historical_context https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance_disclosure... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance_disclosures_(1970–2013)#2000s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance_disclosure...
- zionic 4y ago
  Are you ironically linking government websites for satire purposes? Or what? You can’t possibly take Wikipedia seriously as a source of information on controversial figures. That would be the least charitable interpretation and violate HN rules

MisterBastahrd 4y ago

And that's why Jim Jones was truly God. Man got 900 people to literally drink the kool-aid.

InitialLastName 4y ago
> kool-aid. You say literally, but the Kraft Heinz company would like you to know that it definitely also might have been Flavor Aid.
- MisterBastahrd 4y ago
  Makes sense. Socialists ain't got enough money for koolaid.

upwardbound 4y ago

There's a fringe hypothesis that historical Jesus (the human person behind the legends) survived crucifixion, perhaps aided by secretly-sympathetic guards, and was in a near-coma for 3 days in the tomb but then returned to alertness and was helped out of the tomb (perhaps by sympathetic guards). The Roman official who ordered Jesus' execution didn't really want him dead, so perhaps he gave off-the-books instructions to the guards that "if this person were to miraculously survive being crucified, and escaped his tomb in a few days, well there's nothing you could have done to stop a miracle. His tomb that of course is temperate and happens to have water supplies inside. There's nothing you could have done. Wink wink." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate%27s_court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate%27s_court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swoon_hypothesis#Supporting_arguments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swoon_hypothesis#Supporting_ar... "It was uncommon for a crucified healthy adult to die in the time described by the Gospels; the Gospel of Mark reports that Jesus was crucified at nine in the morning and died at three in the afternoon, or six hours after the crucifixion. ... The average time of suffering before death by crucifixion is claimed by some to have been observed to be 2–4 days. ... Modern scholarship has also cast some doubt on the generally agreed depiction of Jesus being nailed to a cross, as opposed to the more common method of having a victim's hands and feet being tied to a cross." If dying normally took 2-4 days, it's possible that a sympathetic guard could have declared him dead after only 6 hours on the cross (maybe after he first fell unconscious) and then transferred him to the tomb in the hopes that he might recover in the remaining 1.5-3.5 days, perhaps moistening his lips in the process. If Jesus were tied to the cross rather than nailed to it, there's really not any plausible thing that could have killed him in just 6 hours of mild to moderate blood loss + heat exhaustion. It's much more plausible that he would have fallen unconscious while maintaining a heartbeat and weak breathing. I used to be Christian and am now more of an agnostic who wants to believe in a benevolent God, and it would be really cool if something like this did happen. Maybe Jesus was just a person but a good one who tried to do good and got lucky through some series of events like this. I recently unfortunately had a loved one who went through the dying process in hospice care, and it was horrifying to watch, but it took multiple days, about 5 days, and 6 hours just isn't plausible. 6 hours on the cross + a recovery from near-death three days later in a cool tomb makes a lot of sense if someone gave him water on the way to the tomb. Or maybe the tomb had a hidden supply of water in it, like a puddle big enough to drink. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus

lisper 4y ago

Hard to tell if you or Charles Colson is/was being serious, but for the benefit of the many, many people who actually do believe this: there is not a single account of an apostle dying for their beliefs that was written by someone who 1) was contemporaneous with the apostles and 2) put their name to the account. All of the supposed first-hand accounts are anonymous.