7 ms·

I went to a liberal arts school, and the concept isn't about wasting your time studying soft subjects that can't get you a job. It's about being a well-rounded

by mbreese 15y ago

I went to a liberal arts school, and the concept isn't about wasting your time studying soft subjects that can't get you a job. It's about being a well-rounded person. The idea is to learn a little about a wide variety of subjects and go in depth on one specific subject. Just because you major in English doesn't mean that you are stuck trying to be an English teacher or a writer... the subject is important, but the process is more important. I happened to study biochemistry, which was somewhat useful. I purposefully didn't major in CS, because the department wasn't very strong - I could learn more on my own projects (I minored in it). My wife went to a different school, but she studied French (including literature). She's now a doctor, which is a fairly useful career. Your major doesn't restrict what you can do later in life.

keiferski 15y ago
I don't think he is saying that a liberal arts degree is a waste, or that the subjects you study are useless. He is saying that, unless you have a ton of money lying around, seriously rethink that expensive "useless" degree. If you're wealthy enough or you already have earning power enough that you can decide to pursue a degree or advanced education in something that will not help you earn a living then more power to you, but I suspect that that is a very minor fraction of the population.
- mnot 15y ago
  Yup. However, he should realise that not every country's education system is messed up as in the US; take a look at places like Germany, Australia, etc., where you can get a good education (broad or narrow) for comparatively little.
  - true_religion 15y ago
    Compariatively little is still 4 years or so of your life. You can earn money to make up for whatever you paid into college, but you can never get that time back. If going to school isn't going to help you earn more, then why focus on it full time? You could do continuing studies throughout your life to broaden your horizons, and focus your youthful studies on apprenticeship, internship, networking or a major that will actually help you earn more.
    - TillE 15y ago
      > If going to school isn't going to help you earn more, then why focus on it full time? That's a terribly sad way of going through life.
    - _delirium 15y ago
      You can earn money to make up for whatever you paid into college, but you can never get that time back. Why would you want to? Four years spent learning about things you care about seems like a pretty good use of ages 18-22. I'd put it the other way: sure, if you start your career at age 18, you might earn more (depends on a lot of factors), but the money you earn will never let you buy that time back.
    - potatolicious 15y ago
      Opportunity cost is IMO a poor way of looking at this. Four years of my life to make myself a more well-rounded, learned person with greater perspective on life? Seems like time well spent. I wouldn't go into crushing debt for it, but if the only outlay was time, sign me the hell up. > "If going to school isn't going to help you earn more, then why focus on it full time?" Because life isn't just about money. > "You could do continuing studies throughout your life to broaden your horizons" Because juggling full-time work with part-time studies is very, very difficult, and inevitably involves compromises in both. Because some subjects require tremendous time commitment to master. > "and focus your youthful studies on apprenticeship, internship, networking or a major that will actually help you earn more." But why? I already earn plenty. If I can take a break from work and pursue a something that I feel makes me a better person, without going into debt for it... why wouldn't I? I'm not particularly old, but if there's one thing I've learned by observing older folk, is that using earning power as your core optimization metric is a really fast path to a wasted, unhappy life.
quanticle 15y ago
I went to a liberal arts school, and the concept isn't about wasting your time studying soft subjects that can't get you a job. It's about being a well-rounded person. What, precisely, is the difference? I have heard many a liberal arts major justify their major under this categorization - as if well roundedness was an end in itself. I have heard precisely zero engineers, doctors, lawyers or professionals speak about their degree making them a more "well rounded" person. Moreover, if taking courses in English makes an engineer more well-rounded, shouldn't the converse apply as well? Why are we programmers forced to take courses in English when English majors aren't forced to take introduction to programming? I agree that your major doesn't restrict what you can do, but it does restrict what you can do easily. For example, I started out in the Computer Engineering department. If I had graduated as computer engineer, I would have had far more exposure to digital logic design than to programming. However, I graduated with a Computer Science degree. Sure, I could do digital logic design (I know the fundamentals, and can work upwards from there), but I certainly can't do it as easily or as naturally as someone who's spent 4 years studying that field. By the same token, a computer engineer probably wouldn't be as good at coding webapps as I am.
- DanBC 15y ago
  > I have heard precisely zero engineers, doctors, lawyers or professionals speak about their degree making them a more "well rounded" person. English universities talk at length about the personal development benefits of the university experience, even for people reading maths or sciences or engineering.
  - quanticle 15y ago
    That's precisely the point I was speaking to. Engineering colleges don't need to use "personal development" as a way to justify their expense. Medical schools, law colleges, and other professional degree programs don't need to do so either. The fact that liberal education needs to refer to something as diffuse and difficult to value as "personal development" should raise hackles in an era when a college education costs almost as much as a house.
    - 15y ago
WalterBright 15y ago
>Your major doesn't restrict what you can do later in life. Up to a point. Few people are able to learn advanced math on their own, and if you pick a major that avoids math classes, you'll be restricted from any job that requires it.
- pmiller2 15y ago
  I majored in math for both my BA and MA. Instead, I get comments like this: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3177169 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3177169 This isn't an isolated instance, either. I get a lot of this attitude any time I try to apply for jobs. Because I'm not looking to be an actuary or math teacher, my degrees are perceived as "useless" -- even when it comes to applying to programming jobs. (Yes, I can program. Yes, I have some public code to show. I do Python and C, if anyone's wondering. Shameless plug: I'm looking.)
  - protomyth 15y ago
    Weird. It was my experience when looking at people to just assume a Math major who could code was do just as well as a CompSci degree.

by mbreese 15y ago

keiferski 15y ago

I don't think he is saying that a liberal arts degree is a waste, or that the subjects you study are useless. He is saying that, unless you have a ton of money lying around, seriously rethink that expensive "useless" degree. If you're wealthy enough or you already have earning power enough that you can decide to pursue a degree or advanced education in something that will not help you earn a living then more power to you, but I suspect that that is a very minor fraction of the population.

mnot 15y ago
Yup. However, he should realise that not every country's education system is messed up as in the US; take a look at places like Germany, Australia, etc., where you can get a good education (broad or narrow) for comparatively little.
- true_religion 15y ago
  Compariatively little is still 4 years or so of your life. You can earn money to make up for whatever you paid into college, but you can never get that time back. If going to school isn't going to help you earn more, then why focus on it full time? You could do continuing studies throughout your life to broaden your horizons, and focus your youthful studies on apprenticeship, internship, networking or a major that will actually help you earn more.
  - TillE 15y ago
    > If going to school isn't going to help you earn more, then why focus on it full time? That's a terribly sad way of going through life.
  - _delirium 15y ago
    You can earn money to make up for whatever you paid into college, but you can never get that time back. Why would you want to? Four years spent learning about things you care about seems like a pretty good use of ages 18-22. I'd put it the other way: sure, if you start your career at age 18, you might earn more (depends on a lot of factors), but the money you earn will never let you buy that time back.
  - potatolicious 15y ago
    Opportunity cost is IMO a poor way of looking at this. Four years of my life to make myself a more well-rounded, learned person with greater perspective on life? Seems like time well spent. I wouldn't go into crushing debt for it, but if the only outlay was time, sign me the hell up. > "If going to school isn't going to help you earn more, then why focus on it full time?" Because life isn't just about money. > "You could do continuing studies throughout your life to broaden your horizons" Because juggling full-time work with part-time studies is very, very difficult, and inevitably involves compromises in both. Because some subjects require tremendous time commitment to master. > "and focus your youthful studies on apprenticeship, internship, networking or a major that will actually help you earn more." But why? I already earn plenty. If I can take a break from work and pursue a something that I feel makes me a better person, without going into debt for it... why wouldn't I? I'm not particularly old, but if there's one thing I've learned by observing older folk, is that using earning power as your core optimization metric is a really fast path to a wasted, unhappy life.

quanticle 15y ago

I went to a liberal arts school, and the concept isn't about wasting your time studying soft subjects that can't get you a job. It's about being a well-rounded person. What, precisely, is the difference? I have heard many a liberal arts major justify their major under this categorization - as if well roundedness was an end in itself. I have heard precisely zero engineers, doctors, lawyers or professionals speak about their degree making them a more "well rounded" person. Moreover, if taking courses in English makes an engineer more well-rounded, shouldn't the converse apply as well? Why are we programmers forced to take courses in English when English majors aren't forced to take introduction to programming? I agree that your major doesn't restrict what you can do, but it does restrict what you can do easily. For example, I started out in the Computer Engineering department. If I had graduated as computer engineer, I would have had far more exposure to digital logic design than to programming. However, I graduated with a Computer Science degree. Sure, I could do digital logic design (I know the fundamentals, and can work upwards from there), but I certainly can't do it as easily or as naturally as someone who's spent 4 years studying that field. By the same token, a computer engineer probably wouldn't be as good at coding webapps as I am.

DanBC 15y ago
> I have heard precisely zero engineers, doctors, lawyers or professionals speak about their degree making them a more "well rounded" person. English universities talk at length about the personal development benefits of the university experience, even for people reading maths or sciences or engineering.
- quanticle 15y ago
  That's precisely the point I was speaking to. Engineering colleges don't need to use "personal development" as a way to justify their expense. Medical schools, law colleges, and other professional degree programs don't need to do so either. The fact that liberal education needs to refer to something as diffuse and difficult to value as "personal development" should raise hackles in an era when a college education costs almost as much as a house.
  - 15y ago

WalterBright 15y ago

>Your major doesn't restrict what you can do later in life. Up to a point. Few people are able to learn advanced math on their own, and if you pick a major that avoids math classes, you'll be restricted from any job that requires it.

pmiller2 15y ago
I majored in math for both my BA and MA. Instead, I get comments like this: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3177169 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3177169 This isn't an isolated instance, either. I get a lot of this attitude any time I try to apply for jobs. Because I'm not looking to be an actuary or math teacher, my degrees are perceived as "useless" -- even when it comes to applying to programming jobs. (Yes, I can program. Yes, I have some public code to show. I do Python and C, if anyone's wondering. Shameless plug: I'm looking.)
- protomyth 15y ago
  Weird. It was my experience when looking at people to just assume a Math major who could code was do just as well as a CompSci degree.