6 ms·

If you opt-in to iCloud, you're opting in to a lot of state-level security risk in any country (and this is true of any commercial cloud).

KennyBlanken 4y ago
Nothing stops Apple from offering e2ee backups, and in fact they do this for certain data backed up to iCloud (health data for example.) But your iMessage data...well there, your ass is hanging out in the breeze. In fact, I'm not sure it's possible to log into an iPhone with your Apple ID and not have an iCloud backup immediately fire off, which means your private encryption keys hit iCloud and stay there until it is purged according to their data retention policies. And we have no idea what those policies actually are; those keys made end up stored forever.
- GeekyBear 4y ago
  > Nothing stops Apple from offering e2ee backups The US Government pressured them to drop a plan for fully encrypted cloud backups. >Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after the FBI complained https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive/exclusive-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypting-backups-after-fbi-complained-sources-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv... If you want a fully encrypted backup of your device, you have to make it to your local Mac or Windows computer.
- thewebcount 4y ago
  > I'm not sure it's possible to log into an iPhone with your Apple ID and not have an iCloud backup immediately fire off Yes, it absolutely is possible. I have never turned on iCloud backup so I have no cloud backups of any of my phones or other devices.
- mehrdada 4y ago
  > In fact, I'm not sure it's possible to log into an iPhone with your Apple ID and not have an iCloud backup immediately fire off You are correct there’s a bit of dark pattern going on here, but it is possible (to the extent the code does what it says of course). To be extra sure I have a custom lockdown MDM profile to disallow iCloud backups, as well as a number of other nefarious things like analytics, and whenever I get a new device, I first DFU restore it to the latest iOS image to ensure software (post bootrom) isn’t tampered with, then activate and install the MDM profile via a Mac and only then I interact with the device and go through setup.
- astrange 4y ago
  > Nothing stops Apple from offering e2ee backups, and in fact they do this for certain data backed up to iCloud (health data for example.) Almost all users can't handle this; to support people, you need to be able to recover their account when they've lost every single password and proof of identity they possibly can. It's not a backup if you can't restore it.
Maxburn 4y ago
We have seen reports that apple can remotely enable icloud backups and then trigger a backup.
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  Do you have more info about this?
- nojito 4y ago
  Source? iCloud backups can only be triggered via your passcode which is secured against the secure enclave.
- threeseed 4y ago
  This doesn't sound plausible in the slightest. The only persistent connection Apple has that I can think of to implement such a concept is for push notifications. Which would be a massive security hole if a HTTP response to that daemon was capable of bypassing the lock screen, secure enclave etc. And the logical question is if they had such a system why would they bother triggering an iCloud Backup when they could ask the device to specifically hand over certain information e.g. Messages. Which at least could be done quietly over Cellular.
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    > Which would be a massive security hole if a HTTP response to that daemon was capable of bypassing the lock screen, secure enclave etc. I mean, Apple has killswitches for every iPhone they ship. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if that suite of tools also included settings management (MacOS has such a thing built-in, fwiw).

KennyBlanken 4y ago

Nothing stops Apple from offering e2ee backups, and in fact they do this for certain data backed up to iCloud (health data for example.) But your iMessage data...well there, your ass is hanging out in the breeze. In fact, I'm not sure it's possible to log into an iPhone with your Apple ID and not have an iCloud backup immediately fire off, which means your private encryption keys hit iCloud and stay there until it is purged according to their data retention policies. And we have no idea what those policies actually are; those keys made end up stored forever.

GeekyBear 4y ago
> Nothing stops Apple from offering e2ee backups The US Government pressured them to drop a plan for fully encrypted cloud backups. >Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after the FBI complained https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive/exclusive-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypting-backups-after-fbi-complained-sources-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv... If you want a fully encrypted backup of your device, you have to make it to your local Mac or Windows computer.
thewebcount 4y ago
> I'm not sure it's possible to log into an iPhone with your Apple ID and not have an iCloud backup immediately fire off Yes, it absolutely is possible. I have never turned on iCloud backup so I have no cloud backups of any of my phones or other devices.
mehrdada 4y ago
> In fact, I'm not sure it's possible to log into an iPhone with your Apple ID and not have an iCloud backup immediately fire off You are correct there’s a bit of dark pattern going on here, but it is possible (to the extent the code does what it says of course). To be extra sure I have a custom lockdown MDM profile to disallow iCloud backups, as well as a number of other nefarious things like analytics, and whenever I get a new device, I first DFU restore it to the latest iOS image to ensure software (post bootrom) isn’t tampered with, then activate and install the MDM profile via a Mac and only then I interact with the device and go through setup.
astrange 4y ago
> Nothing stops Apple from offering e2ee backups, and in fact they do this for certain data backed up to iCloud (health data for example.) Almost all users can't handle this; to support people, you need to be able to recover their account when they've lost every single password and proof of identity they possibly can. It's not a backup if you can't restore it.

Maxburn 4y ago

We have seen reports that apple can remotely enable icloud backups and then trigger a backup.

Nextgrid 4y ago
Do you have more info about this?
nojito 4y ago
Source? iCloud backups can only be triggered via your passcode which is secured against the secure enclave.
threeseed 4y ago
This doesn't sound plausible in the slightest. The only persistent connection Apple has that I can think of to implement such a concept is for push notifications. Which would be a massive security hole if a HTTP response to that daemon was capable of bypassing the lock screen, secure enclave etc. And the logical question is if they had such a system why would they bother triggering an iCloud Backup when they could ask the device to specifically hand over certain information e.g. Messages. Which at least could be done quietly over Cellular.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  > Which would be a massive security hole if a HTTP response to that daemon was capable of bypassing the lock screen, secure enclave etc. I mean, Apple has killswitches for every iPhone they ship. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if that suite of tools also included settings management (MacOS has such a thing built-in, fwiw).