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I used to be a big fan of IRC, but I'm not so much anymore. The reason IRC tends to suck is channel operators and network operators that enable them. No amount

by kodah 4y ago

I used to be a big fan of IRC, but I'm not so much anymore. The reason IRC tends to suck is channel operators and network operators that enable them. No amount of technical advancement will solve that problem. Channels on IRC are unique, and much like domains, so there's not much community competition to sack bad channel operators while network operators are very hands off. What I'd love to see is an open source version of discord take off. Especially if there's a discovery mechanism built in.

welterde 4y ago
That very much depends on the network and the channels how well things work or not. And other than having no moderators/channel operators at all, I don't see how it can be a problem that can even be solved? People can always get drunk on power and go completely crazy. What would be your proposal to solve this?
- kodah 4y ago
  It can be, but not in a place like IRC. The problem is that if a channel operator over a large channel gets to tripping your only option is to move networks if you'd like to chat on the same topic with less abusive operators, which ignores the value that people add to communities. On Discord, all communities are created equal, and are discoverable. When you go to the discovery mechanism you can search for many similarly purposed communities.
  - welterde 4y ago
    Fair point (especially for super generic things like "#science" or similar) - that could sometimes be handled better. However sometimes there are multiple rooms discussing the same thing on the same network, so it's not always necessary to jump ship completely. But not sure I buy that the communities are that different. I would rather view them as different networks in IRC terms. You'll have a completely different set of people from one to the next, so how is it any different to joining a different network on IRC?
    - kodah 4y ago
      > You'll have a completely different set of people from one to the next Yeah, sometimes, other times there's overlap. That is kind of my point, they're encouraging chasing people off to new places because their channel operators could be worse.
nmz 4y ago
I quite frankly hate discord, the model of "servers" is one of communities and although its nice for gaming, not quite so technical discussions. Currently I'm in a bunch of servers, notifications everywhere, did anyone actually talk to me? no. do people talk to each other? barely. From what I can see, discord is made for communities, and communities tend to die. zulip on the other hand? That's exactly how a project based communications platform should be.
- kodah 4y ago
  That's a fair point, Discord I feel addresses the issue of fiefdoms in IRC, but meaningful engagement is lesser and more sporadic. I'm not sure what's worse, tbh.
  - nmz 4y ago
    Discord is definitely worse. at least for technical communities. There's no need for a project or a technical community to have many channels. you need #project-support and #project-development that's basically it, having an entire server for that is way overkill, and whoever wants more, there's always email or a forum (Hell, you can just run host a fossil server which has a forum/chat now). I understand easy phone access, but discord is not it, if anything, Telegram, offer a IRC+ for the modern era.
- Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
  > Currently I'm in a bunch of servers, notifications everywhere Discord's default of "notify me on every message" is its worst anti-feature, IMO. Other than that, I like Discord.
  - madeofpalk 4y ago
    That, and not allowing people to leave channels is very an annoying.
  - nicklaf 4y ago
    Personally, I'd be happy if they let you turn of the "Sohcahtoa82 is typing..." status messages. Those are really engrossing, but I also don't necessarily want my attention drawn away from the chat log if I am just casually catching up on reading the channel. It seems to me that most UX choices these days are designed to increase engagement.
ChadNauseam 4y ago
> What I'd love to see is an open source version of discord take off Isn't this basically the matrix protocol? It already has millions of users (mostly in the french and german governments, I think) and they're pretty serious about UX and security. Anyone can run a server, and there's no issue with messaging someone who uses a different server than you use. Messages and private channels are e2e encrypted, so even the server operator can't see them, and it supports modern features like editing/deleting messages, file sharing, messaging from more than one device, seeing messages that were sent when you were offline, and things like that. To your specific complaint with IRC, matrix also has a pretty innovative feature that I like called "spaces", which are groupings of channels (with a many-to-many relation between spaces and channels). So I can make a "best functional programming channels" space that can have many channels with different moderation teams, etc.
- kodah 4y ago
  That's actually really cool, thanks for turning me onto that.

by kodah 4y ago

welterde 4y ago

That very much depends on the network and the channels how well things work or not. And other than having no moderators/channel operators at all, I don't see how it can be a problem that can even be solved? People can always get drunk on power and go completely crazy. What would be your proposal to solve this?

kodah 4y ago
It can be, but not in a place like IRC. The problem is that if a channel operator over a large channel gets to tripping your only option is to move networks if you'd like to chat on the same topic with less abusive operators, which ignores the value that people add to communities. On Discord, all communities are created equal, and are discoverable. When you go to the discovery mechanism you can search for many similarly purposed communities.
- welterde 4y ago
  Fair point (especially for super generic things like "#science" or similar) - that could sometimes be handled better. However sometimes there are multiple rooms discussing the same thing on the same network, so it's not always necessary to jump ship completely. But not sure I buy that the communities are that different. I would rather view them as different networks in IRC terms. You'll have a completely different set of people from one to the next, so how is it any different to joining a different network on IRC?
  - kodah 4y ago
    > You'll have a completely different set of people from one to the next Yeah, sometimes, other times there's overlap. That is kind of my point, they're encouraging chasing people off to new places because their channel operators could be worse.

nmz 4y ago

I quite frankly hate discord, the model of "servers" is one of communities and although its nice for gaming, not quite so technical discussions. Currently I'm in a bunch of servers, notifications everywhere, did anyone actually talk to me? no. do people talk to each other? barely. From what I can see, discord is made for communities, and communities tend to die. zulip on the other hand? That's exactly how a project based communications platform should be.

kodah 4y ago
That's a fair point, Discord I feel addresses the issue of fiefdoms in IRC, but meaningful engagement is lesser and more sporadic. I'm not sure what's worse, tbh.
- nmz 4y ago
  Discord is definitely worse. at least for technical communities. There's no need for a project or a technical community to have many channels. you need #project-support and #project-development that's basically it, having an entire server for that is way overkill, and whoever wants more, there's always email or a forum (Hell, you can just run host a fossil server which has a forum/chat now). I understand easy phone access, but discord is not it, if anything, Telegram, offer a IRC+ for the modern era.
Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
> Currently I'm in a bunch of servers, notifications everywhere Discord's default of "notify me on every message" is its worst anti-feature, IMO. Other than that, I like Discord.
- madeofpalk 4y ago
  That, and not allowing people to leave channels is very an annoying.
- nicklaf 4y ago
  Personally, I'd be happy if they let you turn of the "Sohcahtoa82 is typing..." status messages. Those are really engrossing, but I also don't necessarily want my attention drawn away from the chat log if I am just casually catching up on reading the channel. It seems to me that most UX choices these days are designed to increase engagement.

ChadNauseam 4y ago

> What I'd love to see is an open source version of discord take off Isn't this basically the matrix protocol? It already has millions of users (mostly in the french and german governments, I think) and they're pretty serious about UX and security. Anyone can run a server, and there's no issue with messaging someone who uses a different server than you use. Messages and private channels are e2e encrypted, so even the server operator can't see them, and it supports modern features like editing/deleting messages, file sharing, messaging from more than one device, seeing messages that were sent when you were offline, and things like that. To your specific complaint with IRC, matrix also has a pretty innovative feature that I like called "spaces", which are groupings of channels (with a many-to-many relation between spaces and channels). So I can make a "best functional programming channels" space that can have many channels with different moderation teams, etc.

kodah 4y ago
That's actually really cool, thanks for turning me onto that.