5 ms·

I always found the ephemeral nature of IRC chat to be a feature, not a bug.

by snarfy 4y ago

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
usrn 4y ago
Exactly. You don't want to know everything that's ever happened in the history of the channel, there's way too much. Even on Discord the client can't handle it so you won't know anyway.
eterps 4y ago
It doesn't work very well for low traffic channels.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
  Email does. Right tool for right job.
  - eterps 4y ago
    Not sure what you mean, how does email help me follow low traffic IRC channels?
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
      You shouldn't use IRC for low-traffic communications, or more precisely it shouldn't be used in the scenario where you want people to be able to receive messages while not connected to the channel. Email is the appropriate tool for these cases.
      - eterps 4y ago
        I don't control the message frequency or member timezone/presence of existing channels that I didn't create in the first place. Also switching back and forth between email and IRC depending on frequency sounds cumbersome to me. Some niche channels can have busy weeks while being silent on others. I like how bouncers improve the UX for that situation.
        zerd 4y ago
        Sounds like the perfect use case for Google Wave. RIP.
        gerikson 4y ago
        Before its time. I still miss it.
      - mro_name 4y ago
        are there irc2email bots?
nly 4y ago
It certainly gets around some of the privacy concerns you get once your platform has message persistence. On the other hand, the mobile/cellular world has been largely responsible for killing off IRC.
- WJW 4y ago
  I don't think IRC ever had much of an expectation of privacy. Just because you didn't keep logs yourself does not mean the IRC server didn't. Using a bouncer does nothing for that.
  - nly 4y ago
    Most IRC networks are relatively small and/or are/were run by techies with no real incentive to log everything. Also, almost everything culturally about IRC relies on trusting the IRC operators to keep things running smoothly and moderate appropriately. UnrealIRCd (a popular IRC server implementation) have actively refused to add features in to the code-base that allow IRC operators to snoop on private messages or covertly on channels, for example. Slack, Facebook, Reddit, and whoever else we all use these days, keep every private message ever sent logged for all time and this is just accepted.
    - astrobe_ 4y ago
      > UnrealIRCd (a popular IRC server implementation) have actively refused That's really moot because operators can certainly and easily snoop the traffic on the wire. Therefore I agree with the statement above that one should take IRC for what it is: lightweight, convenient, but don't assume any privacy - and it can be perfectly fine.
    - corobo 4y ago
      > UnrealIRCd (a popular IRC server implementation) have actively refused to add features in to the code-base that allow IRC operators to snoop on private messages or covertly on channels, for example. Someone should have told Angrywolf. This module was on every "we used to be on BigNet but we split off because reasons" UnrealIRCd network for a while, haha https://pastebin.com/EVkudZVb https://pastebin.com/EVkudZVb (disclaimer: don't use it for moral reasons, but also because I've not vetted the code in any way beyond checking it looks a bit like code)
Grumbledour 4y ago
I always saw it as a bug tbh, but reading drew's footnote on that right now, I am starting to think you and he are right! But I think it is more complicated, because it also makes clear that IRC is not an ideal medium for many forms of messaging. It works great for free for all chat, where the discussion happens right now. But it is not great for group chats with friends or when information needs to be disseminated across a community, but I have both of these seen used often. It just not asynchronous, while at the same time, because of the constant open connection, also not great to use on the go. It's somehow nice to have a medium for "right here and now", but it sucks to not be able to answer a question or miss important conversation because you didn't look for 10 minutes. Of course, multi-tier conversation options have helped traditionally, but I think that's also why i never bothered with IRC much, because it was always 3 dozen people idling who always seemed to burst in conversation once you got disconnected.
- ddevault 4y ago
  To add to this: I think IRC strikes an interesting balance between async and sync conversations -- Schrödinger's synchronization, in a sense. In public conversations, there's no expectation that anyone will be present for anything and no expectation that they should read the things they missed, which is good. However, among mutual bouncer users there's a culture of sending messages you expect to be read later, in their own time. We essentially get the best of both worlds. I wrote a little bit about this facet of IRC culture in this article: https://drewdevault.com/2021/11/24/A-philosophy-for-instant-messaging.html https://drewdevault.com/2021/11/24/A-philosophy-for-instant-...
- smoldesu 4y ago
  > because it also makes clear that IRC is not an ideal medium for many forms of messaging. Back in the day where people used to differentiate between IRC and IMs (more importantly, chat vs messaging), I don't really think this is correct. In today's era of Discord/Slack/SMS though, it certainly would seem like a detriment. I do agree with those other people, though. What was nice about IRC (to me) was how imperative it was. You could post a cool thing, question or discussion topic in a channel and have responses coming through within the minute. When you're done, you just close the window and it's like it was never there. I remember feeling like I was using a secret spy communicator when I had IRC downloaded in middle school, the whole ephemeral nature of it was the coolest to me back then.
Akronymus 4y ago
Same here. Works quite nicely to have tempers cool down as people dis/reconnect and lose history.
johannes1234321 4y ago
If is a feature in many ways, however there are usecases where it isn't applicable. If I got such a usecases the question is whether I pick a completely different chat system or use some form of bouncer as workaround.
baby 4y ago
I don't like the framing on feature vs bug. I think it's a characteristic of IRC that made it nice in some ways, and impractical in other ways. The fact that you knew that people were "on" when they were in the channel, and see exactly how many people where "on" at some point in time was really interesting. Right now all your chat apps are persistent chats so you don't really have that feeling of really being in a "chat room" anymore. If someone is looking for an ephemeral side-project to work on, it'd be interesting to have something like twitter that works in a similar way: you only see tweets posted when you're online on the page.
remram 4y ago
Like shipping channels in the ocean. You can't see them until a boat cuts through the water leaving a wake. There's no evidence left behind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2rGTXHvPCQ&t=18s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2rGTXHvPCQ&t=18s (gibberish warning)

I always found the ephemeral nature of IRC chat to be a feature, not a bug.

by snarfy 4y ago

I always found the ephemeral nature of IRC chat to be a feature, not a bug.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

usrn 4y ago

Exactly. You don't want to know everything that's ever happened in the history of the channel, there's way too much. Even on Discord the client can't handle it so you won't know anyway.

eterps 4y ago

It doesn't work very well for low traffic channels.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
Email does. Right tool for right job.
- eterps 4y ago
  Not sure what you mean, how does email help me follow low traffic IRC channels?
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
    You shouldn't use IRC for low-traffic communications, or more precisely it shouldn't be used in the scenario where you want people to be able to receive messages while not connected to the channel. Email is the appropriate tool for these cases.
    - eterps 4y ago
      I don't control the message frequency or member timezone/presence of existing channels that I didn't create in the first place. Also switching back and forth between email and IRC depending on frequency sounds cumbersome to me. Some niche channels can have busy weeks while being silent on others. I like how bouncers improve the UX for that situation.
      - zerd 4y ago
        Sounds like the perfect use case for Google Wave. RIP.
        gerikson 4y ago
        Before its time. I still miss it.
    - mro_name 4y ago
      are there irc2email bots?

nly 4y ago

It certainly gets around some of the privacy concerns you get once your platform has message persistence. On the other hand, the mobile/cellular world has been largely responsible for killing off IRC.

WJW 4y ago
I don't think IRC ever had much of an expectation of privacy. Just because you didn't keep logs yourself does not mean the IRC server didn't. Using a bouncer does nothing for that.
- nly 4y ago
  Most IRC networks are relatively small and/or are/were run by techies with no real incentive to log everything. Also, almost everything culturally about IRC relies on trusting the IRC operators to keep things running smoothly and moderate appropriately. UnrealIRCd (a popular IRC server implementation) have actively refused to add features in to the code-base that allow IRC operators to snoop on private messages or covertly on channels, for example. Slack, Facebook, Reddit, and whoever else we all use these days, keep every private message ever sent logged for all time and this is just accepted.
  - astrobe_ 4y ago
    > UnrealIRCd (a popular IRC server implementation) have actively refused That's really moot because operators can certainly and easily snoop the traffic on the wire. Therefore I agree with the statement above that one should take IRC for what it is: lightweight, convenient, but don't assume any privacy - and it can be perfectly fine.
  - corobo 4y ago
    > UnrealIRCd (a popular IRC server implementation) have actively refused to add features in to the code-base that allow IRC operators to snoop on private messages or covertly on channels, for example. Someone should have told Angrywolf. This module was on every "we used to be on BigNet but we split off because reasons" UnrealIRCd network for a while, haha https://pastebin.com/EVkudZVb https://pastebin.com/EVkudZVb (disclaimer: don't use it for moral reasons, but also because I've not vetted the code in any way beyond checking it looks a bit like code)

Grumbledour 4y ago

I always saw it as a bug tbh, but reading drew's footnote on that right now, I am starting to think you and he are right! But I think it is more complicated, because it also makes clear that IRC is not an ideal medium for many forms of messaging. It works great for free for all chat, where the discussion happens right now. But it is not great for group chats with friends or when information needs to be disseminated across a community, but I have both of these seen used often. It just not asynchronous, while at the same time, because of the constant open connection, also not great to use on the go. It's somehow nice to have a medium for "right here and now", but it sucks to not be able to answer a question or miss important conversation because you didn't look for 10 minutes. Of course, multi-tier conversation options have helped traditionally, but I think that's also why i never bothered with IRC much, because it was always 3 dozen people idling who always seemed to burst in conversation once you got disconnected.

ddevault 4y ago
To add to this: I think IRC strikes an interesting balance between async and sync conversations -- Schrödinger's synchronization, in a sense. In public conversations, there's no expectation that anyone will be present for anything and no expectation that they should read the things they missed, which is good. However, among mutual bouncer users there's a culture of sending messages you expect to be read later, in their own time. We essentially get the best of both worlds. I wrote a little bit about this facet of IRC culture in this article: https://drewdevault.com/2021/11/24/A-philosophy-for-instant-messaging.html https://drewdevault.com/2021/11/24/A-philosophy-for-instant-...
smoldesu 4y ago
> because it also makes clear that IRC is not an ideal medium for many forms of messaging. Back in the day where people used to differentiate between IRC and IMs (more importantly, chat vs messaging), I don't really think this is correct. In today's era of Discord/Slack/SMS though, it certainly would seem like a detriment. I do agree with those other people, though. What was nice about IRC (to me) was how imperative it was. You could post a cool thing, question or discussion topic in a channel and have responses coming through within the minute. When you're done, you just close the window and it's like it was never there. I remember feeling like I was using a secret spy communicator when I had IRC downloaded in middle school, the whole ephemeral nature of it was the coolest to me back then.

Akronymus 4y ago

Same here. Works quite nicely to have tempers cool down as people dis/reconnect and lose history.

johannes1234321 4y ago

If is a feature in many ways, however there are usecases where it isn't applicable. If I got such a usecases the question is whether I pick a completely different chat system or use some form of bouncer as workaround.

baby 4y ago

I don't like the framing on feature vs bug. I think it's a characteristic of IRC that made it nice in some ways, and impractical in other ways. The fact that you knew that people were "on" when they were in the channel, and see exactly how many people where "on" at some point in time was really interesting. Right now all your chat apps are persistent chats so you don't really have that feeling of really being in a "chat room" anymore. If someone is looking for an ephemeral side-project to work on, it'd be interesting to have something like twitter that works in a similar way: you only see tweets posted when you're online on the page.

remram 4y ago

Like shipping channels in the ocean. You can't see them until a boat cuts through the water leaving a wake. There's no evidence left behind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2rGTXHvPCQ&t=18s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2rGTXHvPCQ&t=18s (gibberish warning)