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Love all of these (including the seemingly offensive “Chinaman” one), but I disagree with most of the updated list. Contemporary mystery authors too often feel

Love all of these (including the seemingly offensive “Chinaman” one), but I disagree with most of the updated list. Contemporary mystery authors too often feel the need to create the illusion of depth by having alcoholic protagonists with messy personal lives. It’s cliche, and it put me off the genre for good about a decade ago.

hpkuarg 4y ago
> the Celestial is over-equipped in the matter of brains, and under-equipped in the matter of morals. Indeed, what a line!
- john-radio 4y ago
  Full context matters here: > Why this should be so I do not know, unless we can find a reason for it in our western habit of assuming that the Celestial is over-equipped in the matter of brains, and under-equipped in the matter of morals. Knox is criticizing this assumption, not endorsing it. > I only offer it as a fact of observation that, if you are turning over the pages of a book and come across some mention of ‘the slit-like eyes of Chin Loo', you had best put it down at once; it is bad. I definitely agree with Knox's harsh judgment of the books that used to include such lines! I am reminded of the many ridiculous and racist caricatures of Chinese, African, Native American, and many other cultures in the (otherwise fairly wonderful) Tintin comics by Hergé. Of course, writing a rule against including any Chinese people in detective fiction is going much too far, and is also racist; but no doubt Knox's writing here is a product of his time. In fact, the first detective novel I ever read was "Walking Shadow" by Robert B. Parker, where his tough PI Spenser and his comrades Hawk and Susan Silverman go up against some Boston area tongs, and the Chinese people in that book are interesting, "round" characters; so I'm glad Parker had either never heard of this particular rule and chose to ignore it.
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    How about "Don't make the murderer a stereotype". (I suspect the Chinaman rule is in there because at the time, a bunch of less-well-done detective stories used it as an easy way to make a villainous villain. Well, until recently, you could do the same with the stereotyped-villain-du-jour. Depending on your audience, you still could today.)
  - baud147258 4y ago
    > the many ridiculous and racist caricatures of Chinese [...] in the (otherwise fairly wonderful) Tintin comics by Hergé. From what I remember of the Blue Lotus, it was the Japanese antagonists who got the short end of the stick in that regard, so at least the book in China avoided that issue (unlike the books set in the US and Africa)
tgv 4y ago
After reading some Nordic detective, I reached the conclusion that a severe dependency must be a requirement for admission to police academy. Divorce, accidental kills, being the only survivor of a crash that killed your family, etc., are extra points which set your career on a quick path to D.I. One cannot imagine the horrors that constitute the life of a police commissioner.
- thematrixturtle 4y ago
  Obligatory: https://youtu.be/I-OOpZitfd0 https://youtu.be/I-OOpZitfd0 (all of 36 seconds long and every one of them worth it)
  - labrador 4y ago
    Swedish crime show, standing in a forest, snow on the ground, dark but not night, possibly in the afternoon: "He committed Finnish suicide" "What's that?" "He drank himself to death" Later on... Detective to the pathologist as they stand over the body of completely naked woman in the morgue: "What can you tell me about this woman?" "Judging by her perfect white teeth I'd say she's American"
- logifail 4y ago
  > I reached the conclusion that a severe dependency must be a requirement for admission to police academy I'm thinking it goes back at least as far as Inspector Morse, although I'm not sure whether we'd say he had a dependency on real ale or Mozart....? Perhaps a certain lack of joy?
- nus07 4y ago
  I think a lot of the recent Scandinavian noir has overblown that part. I do recommend the Martin Beck (Beck) series which was the original series that started the whole Scandinavian noir genre. It’s very 80s and has a less dramatic protagonist DI
karencarits 4y ago
> Contemporary mystery authors too often feel the need to create the illusion of depth by having alcoholic protagonists with messy personal lives I agree with you. Messy personal lives and often sex scenes or gore that add nothing to the story. I find it off-putting and disturbing (not necessarily morally disturbing, more as noise or feeling disconnected from the author: I don't get why are you telling me this, am I missing the point, should I be enjoying this?) and find myself retreating to old classics like Poirot, Father Brown, Miss Marple and Sherlock Holmes again and again
AnimalMuppet 4y ago
That's been going on for a very long time. "The Big Sleep" has a protagonist with a messy personal life; "The Thin Man" has a protagonist who drinks throughout the book, and complains at the end that he didn't get to drink nearly as much as he intended.
nineplay 4y ago
There was a fair amount of complaint about the tacked-on Poriot backstory in the recent Death on the Nile movie. IMO, filling in every blank makes characters less interesting, not more. https://www.pajiba.com/film_reviews/i-cant-stop-thinking-about-poirots-tragic-mustache-backstory-in-death-on-the-nile.php https://www.pajiba.com/film_reviews/i-cant-stop-thinking-abo...
bigbillheck 4y ago
> alcoholic protagonists It's been a while since I last read 'Red Harvest' but I remember an awful lot of laudanum.
- cafard 4y ago
  I thought it was just the guy who had been gassed in the war, and then the narrator. But I remember Paul Theroux, in one of the railroad books, finding all the drinking in The Thin Man distracting.
watwut 4y ago
I think that rough alcoholic detectives are more from 1990ties. then contemporary. But I may be reading different books then you.
xhevahir 4y ago
The problem is that if you're going to have the reader follow a particular detective around for several books, the reader will eventually want to see more sides to the character than just the professional one; treating the detective as merely a detective, solving cases that otherwise don't engage his or her wider life. begins to feel very mechanical and shallow, even--if it's not too strong a word--exploitative. Hence the "messy personal lives," stories where the criminal kidnaps the detective's spouse, etc. Nothing says the detective has to be an embittered alcoholic or some other cliché, but I think there's good reasons behind the trend.
autoexec 4y ago
> Contemporary mystery authors too often feel the need to create the illusion of depth by having alcoholic protagonists with messy personal lives. It's a trope that makes some sense though. People who are doing work that requires them to travel for long periods of time, spend lots of time alone, or where they obsess over every detail of something for days on end could easily strain relationships and cause issues in their personal lives, while constantly dealing with cases involving horrible things can easily lead to drugs/alcohol use. It's still a cliche and it's sure to get old, but I almost feel like you'd need a good explanation for avoiding it. How does a character who has spent years seeing the worst things have zero issue dealing with it? How does a person whose income in inconsistent, whose lifestyle has them disappearing for days at a time, and whose work consumes them not have issues with their personal life? Not that you can't have a detective who is independently wealthy or works as part of a team, or who never travels, or never deals with the kinds of cases that would cause them to have trouble sleeping at night, but if you do have that kind of character the rest of it just sort of follows.

hpkuarg 4y ago

> the Celestial is over-equipped in the matter of brains, and under-equipped in the matter of morals. Indeed, what a line!

john-radio 4y ago
Full context matters here: > Why this should be so I do not know, unless we can find a reason for it in our western habit of assuming that the Celestial is over-equipped in the matter of brains, and under-equipped in the matter of morals. Knox is criticizing this assumption, not endorsing it. > I only offer it as a fact of observation that, if you are turning over the pages of a book and come across some mention of ‘the slit-like eyes of Chin Loo', you had best put it down at once; it is bad. I definitely agree with Knox's harsh judgment of the books that used to include such lines! I am reminded of the many ridiculous and racist caricatures of Chinese, African, Native American, and many other cultures in the (otherwise fairly wonderful) Tintin comics by Hergé. Of course, writing a rule against including any Chinese people in detective fiction is going much too far, and is also racist; but no doubt Knox's writing here is a product of his time. In fact, the first detective novel I ever read was "Walking Shadow" by Robert B. Parker, where his tough PI Spenser and his comrades Hawk and Susan Silverman go up against some Boston area tongs, and the Chinese people in that book are interesting, "round" characters; so I'm glad Parker had either never heard of this particular rule and chose to ignore it.
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  How about "Don't make the murderer a stereotype". (I suspect the Chinaman rule is in there because at the time, a bunch of less-well-done detective stories used it as an easy way to make a villainous villain. Well, until recently, you could do the same with the stereotyped-villain-du-jour. Depending on your audience, you still could today.)
- baud147258 4y ago
  > the many ridiculous and racist caricatures of Chinese [...] in the (otherwise fairly wonderful) Tintin comics by Hergé. From what I remember of the Blue Lotus, it was the Japanese antagonists who got the short end of the stick in that regard, so at least the book in China avoided that issue (unlike the books set in the US and Africa)

tgv 4y ago

After reading some Nordic detective, I reached the conclusion that a severe dependency must be a requirement for admission to police academy. Divorce, accidental kills, being the only survivor of a crash that killed your family, etc., are extra points which set your career on a quick path to D.I. One cannot imagine the horrors that constitute the life of a police commissioner.

thematrixturtle 4y ago
Obligatory: https://youtu.be/I-OOpZitfd0 https://youtu.be/I-OOpZitfd0 (all of 36 seconds long and every one of them worth it)
- labrador 4y ago
  Swedish crime show, standing in a forest, snow on the ground, dark but not night, possibly in the afternoon: "He committed Finnish suicide" "What's that?" "He drank himself to death" Later on... Detective to the pathologist as they stand over the body of completely naked woman in the morgue: "What can you tell me about this woman?" "Judging by her perfect white teeth I'd say she's American"
logifail 4y ago
> I reached the conclusion that a severe dependency must be a requirement for admission to police academy I'm thinking it goes back at least as far as Inspector Morse, although I'm not sure whether we'd say he had a dependency on real ale or Mozart....? Perhaps a certain lack of joy?
nus07 4y ago
I think a lot of the recent Scandinavian noir has overblown that part. I do recommend the Martin Beck (Beck) series which was the original series that started the whole Scandinavian noir genre. It’s very 80s and has a less dramatic protagonist DI

karencarits 4y ago

> Contemporary mystery authors too often feel the need to create the illusion of depth by having alcoholic protagonists with messy personal lives I agree with you. Messy personal lives and often sex scenes or gore that add nothing to the story. I find it off-putting and disturbing (not necessarily morally disturbing, more as noise or feeling disconnected from the author: I don't get why are you telling me this, am I missing the point, should I be enjoying this?) and find myself retreating to old classics like Poirot, Father Brown, Miss Marple and Sherlock Holmes again and again

AnimalMuppet 4y ago

That's been going on for a very long time. "The Big Sleep" has a protagonist with a messy personal life; "The Thin Man" has a protagonist who drinks throughout the book, and complains at the end that he didn't get to drink nearly as much as he intended.

nineplay 4y ago

There was a fair amount of complaint about the tacked-on Poriot backstory in the recent Death on the Nile movie. IMO, filling in every blank makes characters less interesting, not more. https://www.pajiba.com/film_reviews/i-cant-stop-thinking-about-poirots-tragic-mustache-backstory-in-death-on-the-nile.php https://www.pajiba.com/film_reviews/i-cant-stop-thinking-abo...

bigbillheck 4y ago

> alcoholic protagonists It's been a while since I last read 'Red Harvest' but I remember an awful lot of laudanum.

cafard 4y ago
I thought it was just the guy who had been gassed in the war, and then the narrator. But I remember Paul Theroux, in one of the railroad books, finding all the drinking in The Thin Man distracting.

watwut 4y ago

I think that rough alcoholic detectives are more from 1990ties. then contemporary. But I may be reading different books then you.

xhevahir 4y ago

The problem is that if you're going to have the reader follow a particular detective around for several books, the reader will eventually want to see more sides to the character than just the professional one; treating the detective as merely a detective, solving cases that otherwise don't engage his or her wider life. begins to feel very mechanical and shallow, even--if it's not too strong a word--exploitative. Hence the "messy personal lives," stories where the criminal kidnaps the detective's spouse, etc. Nothing says the detective has to be an embittered alcoholic or some other cliché, but I think there's good reasons behind the trend.

autoexec 4y ago

> Contemporary mystery authors too often feel the need to create the illusion of depth by having alcoholic protagonists with messy personal lives. It's a trope that makes some sense though. People who are doing work that requires them to travel for long periods of time, spend lots of time alone, or where they obsess over every detail of something for days on end could easily strain relationships and cause issues in their personal lives, while constantly dealing with cases involving horrible things can easily lead to drugs/alcohol use. It's still a cliche and it's sure to get old, but I almost feel like you'd need a good explanation for avoiding it. How does a character who has spent years seeing the worst things have zero issue dealing with it? How does a person whose income in inconsistent, whose lifestyle has them disappearing for days at a time, and whose work consumes them not have issues with their personal life? Not that you can't have a detective who is independently wealthy or works as part of a team, or who never travels, or never deals with the kinds of cases that would cause them to have trouble sleeping at night, but if you do have that kind of character the rest of it just sort of follows.