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> Breaking from Canada to underline these minor differences would come at a tremendous cost. Unfortunately, I suspect that the renewed separatist movement is m

by ekidd 4y ago

> Breaking from Canada to underline these minor differences would come at a tremendous cost. Unfortunately, I suspect that the renewed separatist movement is making a lot of people rethink potential futures in Quebec. For example, my wife and I would easily meet the requirements to immigrate to Quebec. We have francophone family in Montreal, we speak French (one of us natively), and we have valuable professional skills. We would have no objections to sending our kids to francophone schools. And Montreal is one of my favorite cities on the planet, despite the horrible traffic and interminable road construction. But looking at law 66, there's a certain cruelty to the details. As I understand it, new arrivals will be forbidden from receiving any government services in a language other than French after 6 months. Montreal's respected English-speaking universities will apparently be placed under strict language rules, with the obvious intention of weakening them. And there's talk, once again, about separation from Canada. An independent Québec without Canadian human rights guarantees, and with ever more desperate extensions to law 66, would likely weaken the robust international economy of Montreal. I suspect that even some bilingual professionals would start thinking about moving to Toronto?

incomingpain 4y ago
>Unfortunately, I suspect that the renewed separatist movement is making a lot of people rethink potential futures in Quebec. How about those Curfews and other insane covid responses? >But looking at law 66, there's a certain cruelty to the details. As I understand it, new arrivals will be forbidden from receiving any government services in a language other than French after 6 months. Montreal's respected English-speaking universities will apparently be placed under strict language rules, with the obvious intention of weakening them. And there's talk, once again, about separation from Canada. So lets say I go to Northsec in Montreal, awesome experience. Since I cannot prove I went to an english school. I would only be served in french if I ended up in hospital. Parles pas francais. So what? I just die in the hospital? I've been to a quebec hospital before. I waited 16 hours in the waiting room because I didnt speak french. Obviously I'm not going to Montreal anymore. Northsec is awesome but guess not anymore. >An independent Québec without Canadian human rights guarantees, and with ever more desperate extensions to law 66, would likely weaken the robust international economy of Montreal. I suspect that even some bilingual professionals would start thinking about moving to Toronto? What you are seeing as a negative the quebec separatists see as a positive.
rayiner 4y ago
Speaking a foreign language in a country isn’t a human right. Language is one of the things that defines a country!
- slindz 4y ago
  English is not a foreign language in Canada. The rest of Canada goes to great lengths to provide bilingual support. It's awful to see English being systematically demonized in Canada.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    Quebec was part of France for more than 200 years before it was forcibly incorporated into British North America. Most French Canadians today are descendants of 800 French women who settled in Quebec from 1663-1673: https://www.cbc.ca/2017/canadathestoryofus/most-french-canadians-are-descended-from-these-800-women-1.4029699 https://www.cbc.ca/2017/canadathestoryofus/most-french-canad... Yes, it’s part of Canada now. But maintaining its independent French identity was a fundamental part of the bargain of that union.
- qwedf 4y ago
  Last I checked, Montreal is in Canada and Canada has two official languages. It's my right
  - jpambrun 4y ago
    - phoobahr 4y ago
      Nope - this is a real issue inside our domestic borders. The country has two official languages but only one region that legislates one of them as second class. Additionally - Quebec's insistence on "protecting their distinct and unique culture" tramples all over the rights of other demographics important to the formation of the country. Ex: Montreal sits on unneeded Mohawk land and the insistence on French (very Quebecois French, see numerous stories of relocating citizens of France not passing the competency requirements) but you can't get served in any Iroquoian language and in much of the north many citizens speak dialects of Cree as a first language. So you have Indigenous people who were trampled, those who signed treaties that were then broken and/or ignored, the Metis who at least got a slightly better deal having negotiated later and spent a lot of blood, and then the Quebecois who were (basically) on the loosing side of a war & abandoned by the mother country in favour of sugar plantations in the Caribbean. And of course they get the best deal with untenable consequences and have to be entertained every time there's a complaint that can't possibly be backed up. Whether a referendum ever actually passes the province simply can't afford to separate so, uhh, yeah. Sweetheart deals (when compared to everyone else) because, simply put, racism. So keep some of the context in mind when Canadians complain that the province will outlaw "bonjour-hi" but you can still be served in English at nearly every fast-food joint in Montreal but might very well not get admitted to a hospital because your French isn't proficient enough.
ekidd 4y ago
OK, so I did some digging at lunch. First, a correction: Discussion around the web suggests that this won't affect McGill much. The text of the new law is available here: http://m.assnat.qc.ca/fr/travaux-parlementaires/projets-loi/projet-loi-96-42-1.html http://m.assnat.qc.ca/fr/travaux-parlementaires/projets-loi/... One interesting part is that government offices are generally forbidden to provide English versions of written texts in most situations. There are quite a few exceptions, including tourism, communicating with foreign governments, dealing with First Nations, etc. The most important of these is a health, public security and "natural justice" exception: > «22.3. Un organisme de l’Administration peut déroger au paragraphe 1° de l’article 13.2 en utilisant, en plus du français, une autre langue lorsqu’il écrit, dans les cas suivants: > 1° lorsque la santé, la sécurité publique ou les principes de justice naturelle l’exigent; When dealing with new arrivals to Quebec, government offices may provide written materials in other languages for the first six months. After that, apparently all communications must be solely in French? Quebec actually has a system for helping immigrants learn French and adapt to life in Quebec. For example, see https://www.quebec.ca/education/apprendre-le-francais/cours-temps-complet/immigrant/temps-complet https://www.quebec.ca/education/apprendre-le-francais/cours-.... From what I've heard, it's not great, but it's better than what's available in some countries. But cutting off all access to bilingual written materials after 6 months (which is my understanding of this text) is obviously going to make it harder to help people assimilate. One of the industries that will be hardest-hit by this law is Montreal's software industry: https://www.lapresse.ca/affaires/chroniques/2022-06-15/projet-de-loi-96/oui-a-la-francisation-bien-planifiee.php https://www.lapresse.ca/affaires/chroniques/2022-06-15/proje... > Selon le regroupement d’entreprises technos, la nouvelle loi 96 « impose un délai irréaliste, car les nouveaux arrivants doivent jongler avec de multiples défis reliés à leur intégration au sein d’une nouvelle culture et à un changement de vie professionnelle » Basically: You can't move house, start a demanding new job, adapt to a new culture and reach a high level of French in 6 months. This puts Quebec software companies in a tough place, in terms of recruitment. Probably they'll end up recruiting in other locations.
moltar 4y ago
We are leaving Montreal for the reasons you describe. We are not Francophones and we no longer feel welcomed. It all feels like the history is repeating itself.

by ekidd 4y ago

incomingpain 4y ago

>Unfortunately, I suspect that the renewed separatist movement is making a lot of people rethink potential futures in Quebec. How about those Curfews and other insane covid responses? >But looking at law 66, there's a certain cruelty to the details. As I understand it, new arrivals will be forbidden from receiving any government services in a language other than French after 6 months. Montreal's respected English-speaking universities will apparently be placed under strict language rules, with the obvious intention of weakening them. And there's talk, once again, about separation from Canada. So lets say I go to Northsec in Montreal, awesome experience. Since I cannot prove I went to an english school. I would only be served in french if I ended up in hospital. Parles pas francais. So what? I just die in the hospital? I've been to a quebec hospital before. I waited 16 hours in the waiting room because I didnt speak french. Obviously I'm not going to Montreal anymore. Northsec is awesome but guess not anymore. >An independent Québec without Canadian human rights guarantees, and with ever more desperate extensions to law 66, would likely weaken the robust international economy of Montreal. I suspect that even some bilingual professionals would start thinking about moving to Toronto? What you are seeing as a negative the quebec separatists see as a positive.

rayiner 4y ago

Speaking a foreign language in a country isn’t a human right. Language is one of the things that defines a country!

slindz 4y ago
English is not a foreign language in Canada. The rest of Canada goes to great lengths to provide bilingual support. It's awful to see English being systematically demonized in Canada.
- rayiner 4y ago
  Quebec was part of France for more than 200 years before it was forcibly incorporated into British North America. Most French Canadians today are descendants of 800 French women who settled in Quebec from 1663-1673: https://www.cbc.ca/2017/canadathestoryofus/most-french-canadians-are-descended-from-these-800-women-1.4029699 https://www.cbc.ca/2017/canadathestoryofus/most-french-canad... Yes, it’s part of Canada now. But maintaining its independent French identity was a fundamental part of the bargain of that union.
qwedf 4y ago
Last I checked, Montreal is in Canada and Canada has two official languages. It's my right
- jpambrun 4y ago
  - phoobahr 4y ago
    Nope - this is a real issue inside our domestic borders. The country has two official languages but only one region that legislates one of them as second class. Additionally - Quebec's insistence on "protecting their distinct and unique culture" tramples all over the rights of other demographics important to the formation of the country. Ex: Montreal sits on unneeded Mohawk land and the insistence on French (very Quebecois French, see numerous stories of relocating citizens of France not passing the competency requirements) but you can't get served in any Iroquoian language and in much of the north many citizens speak dialects of Cree as a first language. So you have Indigenous people who were trampled, those who signed treaties that were then broken and/or ignored, the Metis who at least got a slightly better deal having negotiated later and spent a lot of blood, and then the Quebecois who were (basically) on the loosing side of a war & abandoned by the mother country in favour of sugar plantations in the Caribbean. And of course they get the best deal with untenable consequences and have to be entertained every time there's a complaint that can't possibly be backed up. Whether a referendum ever actually passes the province simply can't afford to separate so, uhh, yeah. Sweetheart deals (when compared to everyone else) because, simply put, racism. So keep some of the context in mind when Canadians complain that the province will outlaw "bonjour-hi" but you can still be served in English at nearly every fast-food joint in Montreal but might very well not get admitted to a hospital because your French isn't proficient enough.

ekidd 4y ago

OK, so I did some digging at lunch. First, a correction: Discussion around the web suggests that this won't affect McGill much. The text of the new law is available here: http://m.assnat.qc.ca/fr/travaux-parlementaires/projets-loi/projet-loi-96-42-1.html http://m.assnat.qc.ca/fr/travaux-parlementaires/projets-loi/... One interesting part is that government offices are generally forbidden to provide English versions of written texts in most situations. There are quite a few exceptions, including tourism, communicating with foreign governments, dealing with First Nations, etc. The most important of these is a health, public security and "natural justice" exception: > «22.3. Un organisme de l’Administration peut déroger au paragraphe 1° de l’article 13.2 en utilisant, en plus du français, une autre langue lorsqu’il écrit, dans les cas suivants: > 1° lorsque la santé, la sécurité publique ou les principes de justice naturelle l’exigent; When dealing with new arrivals to Quebec, government offices may provide written materials in other languages for the first six months. After that, apparently all communications must be solely in French? Quebec actually has a system for helping immigrants learn French and adapt to life in Quebec. For example, see https://www.quebec.ca/education/apprendre-le-francais/cours-temps-complet/immigrant/temps-complet https://www.quebec.ca/education/apprendre-le-francais/cours-.... From what I've heard, it's not great, but it's better than what's available in some countries. But cutting off all access to bilingual written materials after 6 months (which is my understanding of this text) is obviously going to make it harder to help people assimilate. One of the industries that will be hardest-hit by this law is Montreal's software industry: https://www.lapresse.ca/affaires/chroniques/2022-06-15/projet-de-loi-96/oui-a-la-francisation-bien-planifiee.php https://www.lapresse.ca/affaires/chroniques/2022-06-15/proje... > Selon le regroupement d’entreprises technos, la nouvelle loi 96 « impose un délai irréaliste, car les nouveaux arrivants doivent jongler avec de multiples défis reliés à leur intégration au sein d’une nouvelle culture et à un changement de vie professionnelle » Basically: You can't move house, start a demanding new job, adapt to a new culture and reach a high level of French in 6 months. This puts Quebec software companies in a tough place, in terms of recruitment. Probably they'll end up recruiting in other locations.

moltar 4y ago

We are leaving Montreal for the reasons you describe. We are not Francophones and we no longer feel welcomed. It all feels like the history is repeating itself.