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Hybrids that companies bought with lots of tax deductions were not used as hybrids (gasoline was payed by the company). Hybrids bought by private people are us

Hybrids that companies bought with lots of tax deductions were not used as hybrids (gasoline was payed by the company). Hybrids bought by private people are usually used in EV mode. The problem is the 10x mismatch between the expected CO2/pollutant emissions and the estimated after usage for company owned PHEVs. They caused a mess in EU.

danaris 4y ago
I'm sorry, what? You think that if someone puts gasoline in a hybrid car, then it's "not being used as a hybrid"? Even plug-in hybrids are designed to do both. That's what "hybrid" means. I've never heard of a hybrid where you can just...turn off the hybrid-ness, and make it operate 100% as an ICE vehicle. So if companies buy hybrids, and run them on the most inefficient settings, they're still getting vastly better gas mileage than if they bought a pure-ICE vehicle instead.
- xiphias2 4y ago
  The main point is the ineffective distribution of capital because of the 5x difference between advertised and real gas usage. The same capital would probably be better allocated on only BEV subsidies. https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/fs-real-world-phev-use-jun22.pdf https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/fs-real-world...
  - danaris 4y ago
    I mean, I wouldn't at all object to shifting faster to full-electric vehicles, and getting rid of both full-ICE and hybrids. But it seems to me that this is a bit of a nitpick, given the degree to which fossil fuels are still subsidized (according to [0], it was about $20B/yr in 2019 for the US). I'm having a hard time quickly coming up with numbers as to federal subsidies for hybrid and full-electric vehicles for comparison (best I could find quickly was [1], which indicates about $7.5B allocated for building out EV charging infrastructure). Personally, I doubt that hybrid vehicle subsidies come anywhere close to that $20B/yr, though I'd be happy to be proven wrong...and even if they are comparable, it still seems like a silly kind of self-sabotage to be calling for cannibalizing hybrid subsidies to give to EVs when fossil fuels are still getting that much. [0] https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subsidies-a-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subs... [1] https://www.transportation.gov/rural/ev/toolkit/ev-infrastructure-funding-and-financing/federal-funding-programs https://www.transportation.gov/rural/ev/toolkit/ev-infrastru...
- tommiegannert 4y ago
  > I've never heard of a hybrid where you can just...turn off the hybrid-ness, and make it operate 100% as an ICE vehicle. This seems easy to do: never charge the battery, or only charge it from the ICE. What am I missing?
  - miloignis 4y ago
    Hybrids are generally significantly more efficient that ICE cars because it keeps the engine in the "sweet spot", efficiency-wise. If the sweet spot for engine efficiency is more power than you're using, then the extra power goes towards charging the battery. If the sweet spot is less power than you need, it can make up some of the difference with the electric motor using previously stored power. People talk a lot about plugging them in, or regenerative breaking, but that's overlooking the main way they work, which is in concert with the ICE to make it more efficient. (caveat: I'm not an expert, but own a hybrid and had a long discussion with an engineer friend who had just taken a hybrid powertrain class)
    - pandaman 4y ago
      It's a particular scheme of hybrid where the engine is not connected to the wheels but a generator. I don't think any of these are made in Germany, at least in the form of a car. This is popular on heavy trucks and some Japanese micro-cars. Normally a hybrid runs its engine just like a regular car and supplements it with an electric motor when possible.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - pandaman 4y ago
    Even then a hybrid will recuperate energy when braking. The "Earth-saving-mobile" of early 2000s, Toyota Prius did not even allow plug-in charging.

danaris 4y ago

I'm sorry, what? You think that if someone puts gasoline in a hybrid car, then it's "not being used as a hybrid"? Even plug-in hybrids are designed to do both. That's what "hybrid" means. I've never heard of a hybrid where you can just...turn off the hybrid-ness, and make it operate 100% as an ICE vehicle. So if companies buy hybrids, and run them on the most inefficient settings, they're still getting vastly better gas mileage than if they bought a pure-ICE vehicle instead.

xiphias2 4y ago
The main point is the ineffective distribution of capital because of the 5x difference between advertised and real gas usage. The same capital would probably be better allocated on only BEV subsidies. https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/fs-real-world-phev-use-jun22.pdf https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/fs-real-world...
- danaris 4y ago
  I mean, I wouldn't at all object to shifting faster to full-electric vehicles, and getting rid of both full-ICE and hybrids. But it seems to me that this is a bit of a nitpick, given the degree to which fossil fuels are still subsidized (according to [0], it was about $20B/yr in 2019 for the US). I'm having a hard time quickly coming up with numbers as to federal subsidies for hybrid and full-electric vehicles for comparison (best I could find quickly was [1], which indicates about $7.5B allocated for building out EV charging infrastructure). Personally, I doubt that hybrid vehicle subsidies come anywhere close to that $20B/yr, though I'd be happy to be proven wrong...and even if they are comparable, it still seems like a silly kind of self-sabotage to be calling for cannibalizing hybrid subsidies to give to EVs when fossil fuels are still getting that much. [0] https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subsidies-a-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subs... [1] https://www.transportation.gov/rural/ev/toolkit/ev-infrastructure-funding-and-financing/federal-funding-programs https://www.transportation.gov/rural/ev/toolkit/ev-infrastru...
tommiegannert 4y ago
> I've never heard of a hybrid where you can just...turn off the hybrid-ness, and make it operate 100% as an ICE vehicle. This seems easy to do: never charge the battery, or only charge it from the ICE. What am I missing?
- miloignis 4y ago
  Hybrids are generally significantly more efficient that ICE cars because it keeps the engine in the "sweet spot", efficiency-wise. If the sweet spot for engine efficiency is more power than you're using, then the extra power goes towards charging the battery. If the sweet spot is less power than you need, it can make up some of the difference with the electric motor using previously stored power. People talk a lot about plugging them in, or regenerative breaking, but that's overlooking the main way they work, which is in concert with the ICE to make it more efficient. (caveat: I'm not an expert, but own a hybrid and had a long discussion with an engineer friend who had just taken a hybrid powertrain class)
  - pandaman 4y ago
    It's a particular scheme of hybrid where the engine is not connected to the wheels but a generator. I don't think any of these are made in Germany, at least in the form of a car. This is popular on heavy trucks and some Japanese micro-cars. Normally a hybrid runs its engine just like a regular car and supplements it with an electric motor when possible.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- pandaman 4y ago
  Even then a hybrid will recuperate energy when braking. The "Earth-saving-mobile" of early 2000s, Toyota Prius did not even allow plug-in charging.