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I tried out the Kia and Hyundai EV platform and found the infotainment incredibly bad. The Kia in particular is a case study in UX anti patterns. Toggles for s

I tried out the Kia and Hyundai EV platform and found the infotainment incredibly bad. The Kia in particular is a case study in UX anti patterns. Toggles for switching the same capacitive buttons between different functions is almost a caricature of good UX in a car. The Hyundai was better, but still everything was capacitive and unintuitive. The Tesla big screen and UX is also bad, but I certainly wouldn’t put the Kia or Hyundai infotainment on a pedestal as a job well done. I am personally waiting to see what Honda or Toyota release. A bigger issue (to me) is that EVs are just too expensive. You won’t save money unless you’re comparing an EV to a luxury car. If you’re comparison shopping an EV6 against a CRV you’ll never get the numbers to work. And if you’re in the market for a luxury car would you rather have a Kia or a Tesla??

kjksf 4y ago
> EVs are just too expensive Per https://insideevs.com/news/586195/tesla-model3-rwd-tco-toyota-camry-2021/ https://insideevs.com/news/586195/tesla-model3-rwd-tco-toyot... 5-year Total Cost of Ownership of Model 3 SR is about the same as Toyota Camry for an average 10k miles / year driver. And that was probably calculated with the old gas prices. And if you get the new usage based insurance from Tesla (available in 8 US states) then you might additionally save on insurance (see e.g. https://twitter.com/jd_average/status/1543083099701010434 https://twitter.com/jd_average/status/1543083099701010434 saving $1.6k for 2 cars compared to Geico).
- lxldkslwpsm 4y ago
  Lmao yeah I'm sure inside EVs dot com is unbiased Tell me, did they find the same if you buy a ten year old Tesla vs a ten year old Camry? My dad bought a 1992 Miata in 2005 for $2500 and then drove it for fifteen years. Has anyone even heard of someone buying a used Tesla?
  - b112 4y ago
    Has anyone even heard of someone buying a used Tesla? Yes! Only 2 years old though, so not a good data point. Lots of dumbassery, had to get approval from Telsa or the warranty would be void.
  - kalnins 4y ago
    Well, this [1] guy did buy a 8 year old one. [1] https://people.com/human-interest/tesla-owner-blows-up-his-car-when-faced-with-22000-repair-bill/ https://people.com/human-interest/tesla-owner-blows-up-his-c...
  - kjksf 4y ago
    > Lmao yeah I'm sure inside EVs dot com is unbiased Tell us what did they got wrong. Gas is more expensive than electricity. The more you drive, the more you save. At some point you the amount you save will equal the difference in price. > Has anyone even heard of someone buying a used Tesla? Plenty of people buy used Teslas and you can too: https://www.tesla.com/inventory/used/mx?arrangeby=plh&zip=33141 https://www.tesla.com/inventory/used/mx?arrangeby=plh&zip=33... It's hard to buy 10 year old Tesla because their oldest cars are 2012 Model S, then 2015 Model X and then 2017 Model 3 and 2020 Model Y. But some people do sell them and some people buy them. As it happens Tesla's retain their value better than most cars which is another factor that helps in Total Cost of Ownership.
    - ralph84 4y ago
      > Gas is more expensive than electricity. This is heavily dependent on where you charge. California has the highest gas prices in the US but gas is still cheaper than charging at a public charging station in California.
- iasay 4y ago
  It doesn't make sense for most people who realistically can't drop on a Tesla. My car, all the maintenance, the insurance and all the fuel I can put in my car over its entire lifespan even at current fuel prices is cheaper than the lowest entry cost for a Tesla. My car cost £5k for reference with 20k miles on the clock and does 66mpg. I can afford a Tesla. I just think it's a waste of money.
  - dzonga 4y ago
    assuming you're in the UK, which car would that be ?
    - iasay 4y ago
      Citroen C3
- parkingrift 4y ago
  There's no need to rely on fuzzy math from Tesla or Inside EVs. Those comparisons are comically inept. The base Model 3 now costs $48,490 whereas the Toyota Camry starts at $25,845. The absolute most expensive Toyota Camry trim is the XSE V6 with a sticker price of $36,270. Edmunds estimates the 5 year total cost of ownership for that Toyota Camry at... $45,211. The cash cost to own that Camry is $45,211 + $36,270 for a total cash cost of $81,481. Edmunds doesn't have an estimate for a 2022 Model 3, but their 5 year total cost of ownership for a 2020 Model 3 is... $53,660. $48,490 + $53,660 is $102,150. This is the most absurd and generous (to Tesla) comparison I could possibly make and the Model 3 is 25% more expensive. It's two year old Model 3 compared to the most expensive Camry you can buy. If I compare base model to base model it just gets comically out of hand. The 5 year total cash cost for a base model Camry is $25,845 + $31,413 for a total cost of $57,258. The Model 3 is 78% more expensive over five years. You have to really seriously gamify the numbers to come out ahead on any EV. Things such as absurd vehicle comparisons, extending the length well beyond the length that people actually keep their car, discounting or ignoring deprecation, assuming absurd and unrealistic increases in gas, etc.
  - EForEndeavour 4y ago
    Wait, what? Doesn't the total cost of ownership already include the initial purchase price? Why do you add sticker prices to TCOs in your comment?
    - notacoward 4y ago
      Technically it's depreciation rather than purchase price that counts toward TCO, but that's part of what "total" means. Also, using depreciation rather than purchase price would probably favor the Camry even more.
lnsru 4y ago
I mostly have calls while driving, so infotainment is rather secondary gadget for me. Software will be ironed out in coming months. The car is still too new. I think even parking brake was failing and recent software update fixed it. I wouldn’t buy any current Tesla as luxury car. EQS is my favorite or BMW iX as cheaper alternative. Or 2008 Tesla Roadster :-) I know couple very wealthy individuals driving that ancient car as a statement. Edit: about being too expensive. I doubt it. With current petrol prices in Germany my monthly saving on petrol alone will pay for electric vehicle. I forecast seeing liter for 2,5€ in winter here.
- baq 4y ago
  2.5€ is already the price on some Austrian highways…
- b112 4y ago
  I think even parking brake was failing and recent software update fixed it. Good grief. I don't care what car company, but if anything should be 100% manual, a simple cable system, it's this. Computer controlled emergency brake! Insanity!! But sure, manufacturers save a few dollers per car. Computer goes nuts, can't steer, or accelerator stuck, yeah, sure, same borked code will probably stop the emergency brake from engaging. This. Is. Insane.
  - rightbyte 4y ago
    You have no idea how bad it is. I have worked with automobile programming and the pressure from management to put hardware safety feutures in software instead is high. The "ignition key" doesn't do anything nowadays. Just you wait until the brake pedals or steering wheel get electronic only.
hericium 4y ago
> And if you’re in the market for a luxury car would you rather have a Kia or a Tesla?? Tesla build quality[1] has nothing in common with luxury. Lucid is trying to fill the "luxury EV" gap. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgjVvetGPak https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgjVvetGPak
- parkingrift 4y ago
  Doesn't really seem to matter to people in the luxury segment. If luxury buyers cared about quality Land Rover would have gone out of business ages ago. It's as much a status symbol as it is an actual luxury purchase.
cjrp 4y ago
> A bigger issue (to me) is that EVs are just too expensive. You won’t save money unless you’re comparing an EV to a luxury car. Certainly in terms of raw price, but a lot of companies in the UK are doing effectively a company car scheme so you pay for the car pre-tax (saving about 20-45% depending on your tax rate). That same saving doesn't apply to ICE vehicles (gets eaten up by benefit in kind tax).

kjksf 4y ago

> EVs are just too expensive Per https://insideevs.com/news/586195/tesla-model3-rwd-tco-toyota-camry-2021/ https://insideevs.com/news/586195/tesla-model3-rwd-tco-toyot... 5-year Total Cost of Ownership of Model 3 SR is about the same as Toyota Camry for an average 10k miles / year driver. And that was probably calculated with the old gas prices. And if you get the new usage based insurance from Tesla (available in 8 US states) then you might additionally save on insurance (see e.g. https://twitter.com/jd_average/status/1543083099701010434 https://twitter.com/jd_average/status/1543083099701010434 saving $1.6k for 2 cars compared to Geico).

lxldkslwpsm 4y ago
Lmao yeah I'm sure inside EVs dot com is unbiased Tell me, did they find the same if you buy a ten year old Tesla vs a ten year old Camry? My dad bought a 1992 Miata in 2005 for $2500 and then drove it for fifteen years. Has anyone even heard of someone buying a used Tesla?
- b112 4y ago
  Has anyone even heard of someone buying a used Tesla? Yes! Only 2 years old though, so not a good data point. Lots of dumbassery, had to get approval from Telsa or the warranty would be void.
- kalnins 4y ago
  Well, this [1] guy did buy a 8 year old one. [1] https://people.com/human-interest/tesla-owner-blows-up-his-car-when-faced-with-22000-repair-bill/ https://people.com/human-interest/tesla-owner-blows-up-his-c...
- kjksf 4y ago
  > Lmao yeah I'm sure inside EVs dot com is unbiased Tell us what did they got wrong. Gas is more expensive than electricity. The more you drive, the more you save. At some point you the amount you save will equal the difference in price. > Has anyone even heard of someone buying a used Tesla? Plenty of people buy used Teslas and you can too: https://www.tesla.com/inventory/used/mx?arrangeby=plh&zip=33141 https://www.tesla.com/inventory/used/mx?arrangeby=plh&zip=33... It's hard to buy 10 year old Tesla because their oldest cars are 2012 Model S, then 2015 Model X and then 2017 Model 3 and 2020 Model Y. But some people do sell them and some people buy them. As it happens Tesla's retain their value better than most cars which is another factor that helps in Total Cost of Ownership.
  - ralph84 4y ago
    > Gas is more expensive than electricity. This is heavily dependent on where you charge. California has the highest gas prices in the US but gas is still cheaper than charging at a public charging station in California.
iasay 4y ago
It doesn't make sense for most people who realistically can't drop on a Tesla. My car, all the maintenance, the insurance and all the fuel I can put in my car over its entire lifespan even at current fuel prices is cheaper than the lowest entry cost for a Tesla. My car cost £5k for reference with 20k miles on the clock and does 66mpg. I can afford a Tesla. I just think it's a waste of money.
- dzonga 4y ago
  assuming you're in the UK, which car would that be ?
  - iasay 4y ago
    Citroen C3
parkingrift 4y ago
There's no need to rely on fuzzy math from Tesla or Inside EVs. Those comparisons are comically inept. The base Model 3 now costs $48,490 whereas the Toyota Camry starts at $25,845. The absolute most expensive Toyota Camry trim is the XSE V6 with a sticker price of $36,270. Edmunds estimates the 5 year total cost of ownership for that Toyota Camry at... $45,211. The cash cost to own that Camry is $45,211 + $36,270 for a total cash cost of $81,481. Edmunds doesn't have an estimate for a 2022 Model 3, but their 5 year total cost of ownership for a 2020 Model 3 is... $53,660. $48,490 + $53,660 is $102,150. This is the most absurd and generous (to Tesla) comparison I could possibly make and the Model 3 is 25% more expensive. It's two year old Model 3 compared to the most expensive Camry you can buy. If I compare base model to base model it just gets comically out of hand. The 5 year total cash cost for a base model Camry is $25,845 + $31,413 for a total cost of $57,258. The Model 3 is 78% more expensive over five years. You have to really seriously gamify the numbers to come out ahead on any EV. Things such as absurd vehicle comparisons, extending the length well beyond the length that people actually keep their car, discounting or ignoring deprecation, assuming absurd and unrealistic increases in gas, etc.
- EForEndeavour 4y ago
  Wait, what? Doesn't the total cost of ownership already include the initial purchase price? Why do you add sticker prices to TCOs in your comment?
  - notacoward 4y ago
    Technically it's depreciation rather than purchase price that counts toward TCO, but that's part of what "total" means. Also, using depreciation rather than purchase price would probably favor the Camry even more.

lnsru 4y ago

I mostly have calls while driving, so infotainment is rather secondary gadget for me. Software will be ironed out in coming months. The car is still too new. I think even parking brake was failing and recent software update fixed it. I wouldn’t buy any current Tesla as luxury car. EQS is my favorite or BMW iX as cheaper alternative. Or 2008 Tesla Roadster :-) I know couple very wealthy individuals driving that ancient car as a statement. Edit: about being too expensive. I doubt it. With current petrol prices in Germany my monthly saving on petrol alone will pay for electric vehicle. I forecast seeing liter for 2,5€ in winter here.

baq 4y ago
2.5€ is already the price on some Austrian highways…
b112 4y ago
I think even parking brake was failing and recent software update fixed it. Good grief. I don't care what car company, but if anything should be 100% manual, a simple cable system, it's this. Computer controlled emergency brake! Insanity!! But sure, manufacturers save a few dollers per car. Computer goes nuts, can't steer, or accelerator stuck, yeah, sure, same borked code will probably stop the emergency brake from engaging. This. Is. Insane.
- rightbyte 4y ago
  You have no idea how bad it is. I have worked with automobile programming and the pressure from management to put hardware safety feutures in software instead is high. The "ignition key" doesn't do anything nowadays. Just you wait until the brake pedals or steering wheel get electronic only.

hericium 4y ago

> And if you’re in the market for a luxury car would you rather have a Kia or a Tesla?? Tesla build quality[1] has nothing in common with luxury. Lucid is trying to fill the "luxury EV" gap. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgjVvetGPak https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgjVvetGPak

parkingrift 4y ago
Doesn't really seem to matter to people in the luxury segment. If luxury buyers cared about quality Land Rover would have gone out of business ages ago. It's as much a status symbol as it is an actual luxury purchase.

cjrp 4y ago

> A bigger issue (to me) is that EVs are just too expensive. You won’t save money unless you’re comparing an EV to a luxury car. Certainly in terms of raw price, but a lot of companies in the UK are doing effectively a company car scheme so you pay for the car pre-tax (saving about 20-45% depending on your tax rate). That same saving doesn't apply to ICE vehicles (gets eaten up by benefit in kind tax).