5 ms·

Web dev community should just acknowledge the simple fact that typesetting engine from 80s (HTML) and legacy hacks built around it (css and js) is not a good fo

by divan 4y ago

Web dev community should just acknowledge the simple fact that typesetting engine from 80s (HTML) and legacy hacks built around it (css and js) is not a good foundation for making modern apps. It's like trying to build apps with a spreadsheet cells (it's actually possible, but we don't do it, thankfully) by throwing a lot of abstractions and frameworks on top of it that would hide the ugliness of the foundation layer. Once this acknowledged, thing can start moving fast. A lot of good stuff has been developed and discovered in the web dev community, but the foundation of it is total and complete crap. Also I believe we are in the good moment of time to build a better web, as there's virtually one major player in browser engines market and it's easier to experiement with adding support for new foundation layers (think wasm or dart vm). But so far, no matter how much hacks web community can come up with, web apps will be predominantly associated with horrible experience, performance and quality.

gen_greyface 4y ago
https://www.photopea.com/ https://www.photopea.com/ this is a webapp
- divan 4y ago
  https://www.gamedeveloper.com/design/3d-engine-entirely-made-of-ms-excel-formulae-enjoy-this-doom-xls-file- https://www.gamedeveloper.com/design/3d-engine-entirely-made... this is Doom engine in Excel
  - gen_greyface 4y ago
    difference being its an esoteric experiment. and that webapp is used regularly used by thousands. naive of you to even compare both.
    - divan 4y ago
      No ad hominem please. Both examples are cool apps built with the foundation layer not designed for the task. - text markup language isn't a good choice for modern performant graphics editing apps. - excel sheet isn't a good choice for 3d game engine. The difference here lays only in the fact that for Doom 3D engine, authors had another choice.
- Gazoche 4y ago
  Yes, this is one of the best and fastest webapp out there, and yet dragging a selection in that app on my top-of-the-line computer feels more sluggish than doing the same thing in GIMP on a 2010 netbook. Clearly a lot of effort went into making Photopea, but that performance gap doesn't feel like it's ever going to be plugged, no matter how clever we get at using HTML.
- axilmar 4y ago
  It is a nice app because it follows desktop app standards: a menu bar on top, floating windows, a document area, toolbars around it etc. It may be a little slower than native desktop apps, but that is to be expected, since it relies upon an interpreted language.
jasfi 4y ago
Flutter provides another option. The only issue is an initial load time on the web, but with a fiber connection it's not too long to download.
- divan 4y ago
  Sure, Flutter is a great example, how "web app" is just the same app with a crappy foundation layer. Actually the first time you run side-by-side Flutter app as 1) native desktop, 2) iOS (in Simulator), 3) Android (in emulator) and 4) Web (in a browser) , it bends a mind a little bit. All 4 apps looks and feel the same, and only window frame tells the difference.
- hansel_der 4y ago
  "fibre connection" does not tell anything about how fast it is unfortunately. on a related note; iirc average internet connection has around 100ms rtt, 20mbps down, 1mbps up, 500ms fifo buffering and .5% packet loss. optimise for this if you want more marketshare than city dwellers near us costlines.
kitsune_ 4y ago
I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, but there are many great web apps, or not? Google Maps, Docs, Sheets and Slides - they all kind of work without being super horrible? It's not like most desktop apps are these great beacons of perfection either, most desktop apps are just as bad as most web apps. Just think of all the ridiculous enterprise applications that people had work with in the past. And the same applies to mobile apps from the respective app stores. Also since a lot of the applications that you HAVE to use on a daily basis have moved to the web, you might have this feeling that desktop applications are great because the only exposure you have are applications that you choose to install yourself. But if all these apps were desktop applications you might have a different opinion.
- divan 4y ago
  Good points. But I'm not saying that all web apps are horrible. My point is it takes enourmously more effort, time and money to make web app that doesn't suck (compared to non-web alternatives). Google can afford this, for sure. Likewise the desktop apps – there are quite a lot of horrible apps, for sure, but competition usually drives the quality up (I mean competition for the better frameworks and/or languages). Nobody uses Tcl/Tk anymore. Naturally in monopilized markets, enterprise software faces no competition and usually sucks.
- divan 4y ago
  Sorry for unsolicited continuation of the thread, bu I was just typing a comment into StackOverflow box, and zoomed the page a bit (with pinch zoom). Page now shifts itself to the bottom and right on every keypress. Can't imagine seeing weird stuff like that on any desktop app, and yet, for the web apps bugs like this are just normal. We blame developers ("..didn't use this media query api properly..") and ourselves ("oh, it's because the zoom.."), but that the crux of the problem – you have to spend time and efforts to stop these leaking bugs from foundation layer.

by divan 4y ago

gen_greyface 4y ago

https://www.photopea.com/ https://www.photopea.com/ this is a webapp

divan 4y ago
https://www.gamedeveloper.com/design/3d-engine-entirely-made-of-ms-excel-formulae-enjoy-this-doom-xls-file- https://www.gamedeveloper.com/design/3d-engine-entirely-made... this is Doom engine in Excel
- gen_greyface 4y ago
  difference being its an esoteric experiment. and that webapp is used regularly used by thousands. naive of you to even compare both.
  - divan 4y ago
    No ad hominem please. Both examples are cool apps built with the foundation layer not designed for the task. - text markup language isn't a good choice for modern performant graphics editing apps. - excel sheet isn't a good choice for 3d game engine. The difference here lays only in the fact that for Doom 3D engine, authors had another choice.
Gazoche 4y ago
Yes, this is one of the best and fastest webapp out there, and yet dragging a selection in that app on my top-of-the-line computer feels more sluggish than doing the same thing in GIMP on a 2010 netbook. Clearly a lot of effort went into making Photopea, but that performance gap doesn't feel like it's ever going to be plugged, no matter how clever we get at using HTML.
axilmar 4y ago
It is a nice app because it follows desktop app standards: a menu bar on top, floating windows, a document area, toolbars around it etc. It may be a little slower than native desktop apps, but that is to be expected, since it relies upon an interpreted language.

jasfi 4y ago

Flutter provides another option. The only issue is an initial load time on the web, but with a fiber connection it's not too long to download.

divan 4y ago
Sure, Flutter is a great example, how "web app" is just the same app with a crappy foundation layer. Actually the first time you run side-by-side Flutter app as 1) native desktop, 2) iOS (in Simulator), 3) Android (in emulator) and 4) Web (in a browser) , it bends a mind a little bit. All 4 apps looks and feel the same, and only window frame tells the difference.
hansel_der 4y ago
"fibre connection" does not tell anything about how fast it is unfortunately. on a related note; iirc average internet connection has around 100ms rtt, 20mbps down, 1mbps up, 500ms fifo buffering and .5% packet loss. optimise for this if you want more marketshare than city dwellers near us costlines.

kitsune_ 4y ago

I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, but there are many great web apps, or not? Google Maps, Docs, Sheets and Slides - they all kind of work without being super horrible? It's not like most desktop apps are these great beacons of perfection either, most desktop apps are just as bad as most web apps. Just think of all the ridiculous enterprise applications that people had work with in the past. And the same applies to mobile apps from the respective app stores. Also since a lot of the applications that you HAVE to use on a daily basis have moved to the web, you might have this feeling that desktop applications are great because the only exposure you have are applications that you choose to install yourself. But if all these apps were desktop applications you might have a different opinion.

divan 4y ago
Good points. But I'm not saying that all web apps are horrible. My point is it takes enourmously more effort, time and money to make web app that doesn't suck (compared to non-web alternatives). Google can afford this, for sure. Likewise the desktop apps – there are quite a lot of horrible apps, for sure, but competition usually drives the quality up (I mean competition for the better frameworks and/or languages). Nobody uses Tcl/Tk anymore. Naturally in monopilized markets, enterprise software faces no competition and usually sucks.
divan 4y ago
Sorry for unsolicited continuation of the thread, bu I was just typing a comment into StackOverflow box, and zoomed the page a bit (with pinch zoom). Page now shifts itself to the bottom and right on every keypress. Can't imagine seeing weird stuff like that on any desktop app, and yet, for the web apps bugs like this are just normal. We blame developers ("..didn't use this media query api properly..") and ourselves ("oh, it's because the zoom.."), but that the crux of the problem – you have to spend time and efforts to stop these leaking bugs from foundation layer.