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We should at least consider the possibility this is just a bunch of lowlifes trying to cash in with lawsuits on stuff that is sadly routine in many blue collar

by natch 4y ago

We should at least consider the possibility this is just a bunch of lowlifes trying to cash in with lawsuits on stuff that is sadly routine in many blue collar work settings. Since it's Tesla, it garners headlines, and that helps with the lawsuits. Lawsuits at other blue collar workplaces are boring, so they don't make headlines, don't threaten the companies involved, and go nowhere. It seems Tesla is being targeted for monetary reasons here. Yes the underlying (if true) behavior is bad too. But the number of lawsuits should not be taken to conclude that Tesla has an especially outsized internal problem. Rather, it has an outsized spotlight. None of this is to defend rude behavior in any workplace. But I doubt Tesla is particularly special except for the headlines aspect, which increases the potential viability and thus the number of lawsuits. Of course that means it would behoove them to do more to address any behavior issues. I have no reason to think they are interested in perpetuating such behavior.

troutbucket 4y ago
> We should at least consider the possibility this is just a bunch of lowlifes trying to cash in with lawsuits on stuff that is sadly routine in many blue collar work settings. From the article: "Tesla's treatment of Black employees was previously highlighted in a federal lawsuit filed by former employee Owen Diaz, who was awarded $137 million by a jury. After the jury trial, a federal judge rejected Tesla's claim that it is not liable for the "disturbing" racist abuse Diaz suffered but reduced the award to $15 million."
metadat 4y ago
Racism isn't just "rude". It's morally reprehensible and damaging across many dimensions for individuals and society at large. Even moreso at work, where such attitudes are irrelevant and have no place in furthering the business objectives.
seanhunter 4y ago
> We should at least consider the possibility this is just a bunch of lowlifes trying to cash in with lawsuits on stuff that is sadly routine in many blue collar work settings. If it's "sadly routine" and also unlawful then the people are not "cashing in" but are using the legal system to enforce their rights and ensure that companies are held to account for unlawful conduct. Saying that Tesla doesn't have an especially outsized problem is entirely beside the point. It's not a valid defense to say "sure my activities were unlawful but they weren't much more unlawful than other people - you're just picking on me because I'm high profile." I don't know whether or not what they did was in fact unlawful, but deciding that is the whole point of the lawsuit.
thebradbain 4y ago
> Yes the underlying (if true) behavior is bad too. Not just bad, but illegal. If Tesla is losing court cases — which they are — then that’s because the judge and jury believe based on the evidence presented and argued that Tesla, as a company, was at fault. If it’s happened, they SHOULD be sued. No ifs ands or buts about it. > We should at least consider the possibility this is just a bunch of lowlifes trying to cash in with lawsuits No, we don’t need to consider that possibility. Judges and juries, who have actually seen the evidence (moreso than you or me), have repeatedly considered that possibility and repudiated it. Keep in mind Tesla has some of the absolute best legal representation money and reputation can buy. If the claimants’ stories had any exploitable openings for doubt, Tesla’s lawyers would have absolutely (and skillfully) used them to deflect culpability. The fact they are still losing says something.
- ETH_start 4y ago
  >>If Tesla is losing court cases — which they are — then that’s because the judge and jury believe based on the evidence presented and argued that Tesla, as a company, was at fault. Or the law itself is impossible to comply with: https://richardhanania.substack.com/p/wokeness-as-saddam-statues-the-case https://richardhanania.substack.com/p/wokeness-as-saddam-sta... >>Even after the case has been litigated, we still do not know what exactly Tesla could have done to avoid the $137 million judgment (it may be reduced on appeal). Employees did in fact get in trouble for using the n-word and drawing racist cartoons. In retrospect, they probably would’ve been safer if they just fired everyone who Diaz or Di-az accused of racism, at least the non-blacks, but there’s no guarantee that would’ve worked either, as they were in an industry that required them to rely on workers who hadn’t yet internalized elite ways of thinking about race. If they had fired black people for using the n-word too, would that have helped or hurt them in trying to avoid a lawsuit? It’s difficult to say, and that’s sort of the point. >>For next time, there’s little Tesla can do but go all in on diversity training, be as enthusiastic as possible in adopting whatever next race fad comes out of academia, and hope that the next jury isn’t as woke as the one they got this time. Until anti-discrimination laws are rolled back, or come to be based on clear and objective standards, there is no other way.
  - deleted 4y ago
extheat 4y ago
Indeed, and definately some bandwagoning involved. If one group gets an outsized settlement, then others are inspired to do dirt digging to do the same. Alleging pervasive racism is a tall order, and the evidence presented thus far amounts to he-said-she-said and between workers and some supervisors as far as we're aware of and not some leadership thing to go as far to say "standard operating procedure".
FooBarBizBazz 4y ago
Tesla itself has engaged in frivolous lawsuits against competitors. Live by the sword, die by the sword.
- natch 4y ago
  Citation needed.
  - FooBarBizBazz 4y ago
    They've sued Fisker, Rivian, Zoox, Xiaopeng, and more. Just Google "tesla lawsuit trade secret". Maybe some of those cases were legitimate, but were all of them? I doubt it. They seem to sue anybody who goes to a competitor, unless that person has a very low profile.
    - natch 4y ago
      Thanks for the reply; now that you mention those keywords I do recall having heard of some of these. I guess "frivolous" is in the eye of the beholder here.
socialdemocrat 4y ago
That is quite a spectacular claim. I would assume you have equally solid evidence to suggest that people routinely make up lawsuits like this? Just because a case is not proven, does not mean a lawsuit is made up. Most legal systems have innocent until proven guilty and a high standard of proof. Many things which happen cannot always be proven with sufficient amount of evidence even if they happened. A classic case is rape, where it is often hard to produce evidence. That an individual engage in a lawsuite that is made up can make sense. But when you got multiple people with the same kinds of complaints I think the probability of it being made up drops considerably.
rguiliani 4y ago
klyrs 4y ago
> We should at least consider the possibility this is just a bunch of lowlifes trying to cash in with lawsuits on stuff that is sadly routine in many blue collar work settings. Painting racialized minorities as "lowlifes" because they've got the audacity to speak out about pervasive mistreatment is the kind of hot take I'd expect to see in the comments of Fox News.
dragonwriter 4y ago
> We should at least consider the possibility this is just a bunch of lowlifes trying to cash in with lawsuits on stuff that is sadly routine in many blue collar work setting Calling minority workers “lowlifes” is classy, and even if illegal race discrimination is pervasive in many blue collar work settings, so what? “Everyone employer does it” isn't a justification, just a reason that imposing consequences to break the practice is more urgent.
_8j50 4y ago
I disagree because the same isn't happening with their competitors and the verdict against them has been consistent.

by natch 4y ago

troutbucket 4y ago

> We should at least consider the possibility this is just a bunch of lowlifes trying to cash in with lawsuits on stuff that is sadly routine in many blue collar work settings. From the article: "Tesla's treatment of Black employees was previously highlighted in a federal lawsuit filed by former employee Owen Diaz, who was awarded $137 million by a jury. After the jury trial, a federal judge rejected Tesla's claim that it is not liable for the "disturbing" racist abuse Diaz suffered but reduced the award to $15 million."

metadat 4y ago

Racism isn't just "rude". It's morally reprehensible and damaging across many dimensions for individuals and society at large. Even moreso at work, where such attitudes are irrelevant and have no place in furthering the business objectives.

seanhunter 4y ago

> We should at least consider the possibility this is just a bunch of lowlifes trying to cash in with lawsuits on stuff that is sadly routine in many blue collar work settings. If it's "sadly routine" and also unlawful then the people are not "cashing in" but are using the legal system to enforce their rights and ensure that companies are held to account for unlawful conduct. Saying that Tesla doesn't have an especially outsized problem is entirely beside the point. It's not a valid defense to say "sure my activities were unlawful but they weren't much more unlawful than other people - you're just picking on me because I'm high profile." I don't know whether or not what they did was in fact unlawful, but deciding that is the whole point of the lawsuit.

thebradbain 4y ago

> Yes the underlying (if true) behavior is bad too. Not just bad, but illegal. If Tesla is losing court cases — which they are — then that’s because the judge and jury believe based on the evidence presented and argued that Tesla, as a company, was at fault. If it’s happened, they SHOULD be sued. No ifs ands or buts about it. > We should at least consider the possibility this is just a bunch of lowlifes trying to cash in with lawsuits No, we don’t need to consider that possibility. Judges and juries, who have actually seen the evidence (moreso than you or me), have repeatedly considered that possibility and repudiated it. Keep in mind Tesla has some of the absolute best legal representation money and reputation can buy. If the claimants’ stories had any exploitable openings for doubt, Tesla’s lawyers would have absolutely (and skillfully) used them to deflect culpability. The fact they are still losing says something.

ETH_start 4y ago
>>If Tesla is losing court cases — which they are — then that’s because the judge and jury believe based on the evidence presented and argued that Tesla, as a company, was at fault. Or the law itself is impossible to comply with: https://richardhanania.substack.com/p/wokeness-as-saddam-statues-the-case https://richardhanania.substack.com/p/wokeness-as-saddam-sta... >>Even after the case has been litigated, we still do not know what exactly Tesla could have done to avoid the $137 million judgment (it may be reduced on appeal). Employees did in fact get in trouble for using the n-word and drawing racist cartoons. In retrospect, they probably would’ve been safer if they just fired everyone who Diaz or Di-az accused of racism, at least the non-blacks, but there’s no guarantee that would’ve worked either, as they were in an industry that required them to rely on workers who hadn’t yet internalized elite ways of thinking about race. If they had fired black people for using the n-word too, would that have helped or hurt them in trying to avoid a lawsuit? It’s difficult to say, and that’s sort of the point. >>For next time, there’s little Tesla can do but go all in on diversity training, be as enthusiastic as possible in adopting whatever next race fad comes out of academia, and hope that the next jury isn’t as woke as the one they got this time. Until anti-discrimination laws are rolled back, or come to be based on clear and objective standards, there is no other way.
- deleted 4y ago

extheat 4y ago

Indeed, and definately some bandwagoning involved. If one group gets an outsized settlement, then others are inspired to do dirt digging to do the same. Alleging pervasive racism is a tall order, and the evidence presented thus far amounts to he-said-she-said and between workers and some supervisors as far as we're aware of and not some leadership thing to go as far to say "standard operating procedure".

FooBarBizBazz 4y ago

Tesla itself has engaged in frivolous lawsuits against competitors. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

natch 4y ago
Citation needed.
- FooBarBizBazz 4y ago
  They've sued Fisker, Rivian, Zoox, Xiaopeng, and more. Just Google "tesla lawsuit trade secret". Maybe some of those cases were legitimate, but were all of them? I doubt it. They seem to sue anybody who goes to a competitor, unless that person has a very low profile.
  - natch 4y ago
    Thanks for the reply; now that you mention those keywords I do recall having heard of some of these. I guess "frivolous" is in the eye of the beholder here.

socialdemocrat 4y ago

That is quite a spectacular claim. I would assume you have equally solid evidence to suggest that people routinely make up lawsuits like this? Just because a case is not proven, does not mean a lawsuit is made up. Most legal systems have innocent until proven guilty and a high standard of proof. Many things which happen cannot always be proven with sufficient amount of evidence even if they happened. A classic case is rape, where it is often hard to produce evidence. That an individual engage in a lawsuite that is made up can make sense. But when you got multiple people with the same kinds of complaints I think the probability of it being made up drops considerably.

rguiliani 4y ago

klyrs 4y ago

> We should at least consider the possibility this is just a bunch of lowlifes trying to cash in with lawsuits on stuff that is sadly routine in many blue collar work settings. Painting racialized minorities as "lowlifes" because they've got the audacity to speak out about pervasive mistreatment is the kind of hot take I'd expect to see in the comments of Fox News.

dragonwriter 4y ago

> We should at least consider the possibility this is just a bunch of lowlifes trying to cash in with lawsuits on stuff that is sadly routine in many blue collar work setting Calling minority workers “lowlifes” is classy, and even if illegal race discrimination is pervasive in many blue collar work settings, so what? “Everyone employer does it” isn't a justification, just a reason that imposing consequences to break the practice is more urgent.

_8j50 4y ago

I disagree because the same isn't happening with their competitors and the verdict against them has been consistent.