4 ms·

Frameworks are not tools. You select technologies based on their fit for the requirements of the web app.

by xwdv 4y ago

na85 4y ago
Frameworks have a direct impact on UX though. How many React monstrosities are snappy and responsive? Certainly none that I've used.
- belenos46 4y ago
  I can't tell you how many snappy, easy-to-use React sites I've used (I was busy using them, not reviewing their code), but every single time I've said "What the hell is going on, I'm just trying to [simple operation which is the only purpose of the website I'm on]" in the last five or so years, it's some React/Angular/SPAFrankenstein monstrosity.
- moring 4y ago
  I could say the same about almost every web app that gets rendered on the server because every tiny step of interaction needs a network round-trip.
croes 4y ago
Frameworks are tools
- berkes 4y ago
  No. They aren't. Frameworks are the scaffolding, the skeleton. They dictate the shape. It's literally in the name. > : a skeletal, openwork, or structural frame Tools are the things you use to build within that skeleton. More pragmatic: Rails is a framework that dictates an MVC shape, with an RDS, that produces server side rendered HTML or data in a RESTfull manner. The tools you use for Rails development are your IDE, a CI, revision control, a terminal, maybe even the IAAS provider.
  - rat9988 4y ago
    They are still tools though.
    - kitsune_ 4y ago
      Maybe the word 'tool' is just not adequate and there is no 1 to 1 equivalence here. If you come from woodworking, the saw or drill doesn't end up being part of the table you build whereas the framework code is part of the actual product you build. Or in other words, if you remove the framework after you programmed your solution the solution stops working where as if you remove the drill and put it back into your bag the table still stands. I would argue there is a categorical difference at play here. So maybe words like tool, scaffolding (and even framework) are just not entirely up to the job of describing what a 'software framework' is and ultimately lead to confusion.
      - xwdv 4y ago
        Tool is an adequate word, they just need to apply it correctly. Vim is a tool. It’s used for writing code. A framework is not a tool. It is previous work that you build upon so you are not starting from scratch. It is a canvas, already assembled and sized.
  - croes 4y ago
    A framework is a collection of tools to help you building web apps, just like a toolset for building shelves. Your toolset also dictates the shape like a screwdriver dictates the shape of the usable screws.
    - berkes 4y ago
      The framework becomes part of the house, or cupboard. A screwdriver does not become part of the house. That is the semantic difference between tools and frameworks. This doesn't mean one cannot ever use a framework as a tool, or a tool as a framework. But I'd argue in those cases one stops being resp. a framework or tool and starts being a tool or framework.

Frameworks are not tools. You select technologies based on their fit for the requirements of the web app.

by xwdv 4y ago

Frameworks are not tools. You select technologies based on their fit for the requirements of the web app.

na85 4y ago

Frameworks have a direct impact on UX though. How many React monstrosities are snappy and responsive? Certainly none that I've used.

belenos46 4y ago
I can't tell you how many snappy, easy-to-use React sites I've used (I was busy using them, not reviewing their code), but every single time I've said "What the hell is going on, I'm just trying to [simple operation which is the only purpose of the website I'm on]" in the last five or so years, it's some React/Angular/SPAFrankenstein monstrosity.
moring 4y ago
I could say the same about almost every web app that gets rendered on the server because every tiny step of interaction needs a network round-trip.

croes 4y ago

Frameworks are tools

berkes 4y ago
No. They aren't. Frameworks are the scaffolding, the skeleton. They dictate the shape. It's literally in the name. > : a skeletal, openwork, or structural frame Tools are the things you use to build within that skeleton. More pragmatic: Rails is a framework that dictates an MVC shape, with an RDS, that produces server side rendered HTML or data in a RESTfull manner. The tools you use for Rails development are your IDE, a CI, revision control, a terminal, maybe even the IAAS provider.
- rat9988 4y ago
  They are still tools though.
  - kitsune_ 4y ago
    Maybe the word 'tool' is just not adequate and there is no 1 to 1 equivalence here. If you come from woodworking, the saw or drill doesn't end up being part of the table you build whereas the framework code is part of the actual product you build. Or in other words, if you remove the framework after you programmed your solution the solution stops working where as if you remove the drill and put it back into your bag the table still stands. I would argue there is a categorical difference at play here. So maybe words like tool, scaffolding (and even framework) are just not entirely up to the job of describing what a 'software framework' is and ultimately lead to confusion.
    - xwdv 4y ago
      Tool is an adequate word, they just need to apply it correctly. Vim is a tool. It’s used for writing code. A framework is not a tool. It is previous work that you build upon so you are not starting from scratch. It is a canvas, already assembled and sized.
- croes 4y ago
  A framework is a collection of tools to help you building web apps, just like a toolset for building shelves. Your toolset also dictates the shape like a screwdriver dictates the shape of the usable screws.
  - berkes 4y ago
    The framework becomes part of the house, or cupboard. A screwdriver does not become part of the house. That is the semantic difference between tools and frameworks. This doesn't mean one cannot ever use a framework as a tool, or a tool as a framework. But I'd argue in those cases one stops being resp. a framework or tool and starts being a tool or framework.