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> then don't install third party apps on your iPhone and only install Apple software? Like I literally cannot understand the thought process behind this. Someon

by nicce 4y ago

> then don't install third party apps on your iPhone and only install Apple software? Like I literally cannot understand the thought process behind this. Someone needs to physically restrain you from installing an app that you don't want? Because not everyone understands tech very well. There will be tons of social engineering campaigns to make you install the app you don’t want. And enough of them will succeed. And have succeed on Android. We might also see a shift where big players will not release their apps for App store, because they want to collect more data from you. I think for example Apple’s cross app tracking notification is dependent on the app store policy. It is really complicated problem. Giving a stock Android for some non-tech user is much more risky than giving stock iPhone at the moment. When there are too many features, the user is the biggest risk. While HN audience might not be in part of that, a major population is.

Barrin92 4y ago
People have been using laptops and desktops (including from apple), on which they can run their own software, for literally decades. Closed systems are new, not open ones. My 60 year old boomer father who has 9 years of education can find his way around on the command line. Yes, people don't understand tech very well any more because we're giving them crippled tech, and treat them as if they are helpless. It's the paternalism that makes people illiterate, not the other way around. It's such a belittling attitude. Only the chosen HN users and managers in Cupertino with their high IQs can control their devices, everyone else must be handed toys lest they might do something wrong. Replace user with voter in your post and you have the bog standard authoritarian argument for banning half of all newspapers. And as for privacy, the EU has the strongest privacy protections on the globe for a reason. We passed privacy regulation so we don't need to rely on Apple to run a sort of protection racket.
- nicce 4y ago
  > People have been using laptops and desktops (including from apple), on which they can run their own software, for literally decades. Closed systems are new, not open ones. My 60 year old boomer father who has 9 years of education can find his way around on the command line. Yes, people don't understand tech very well any more because we're giving them crippled tech, and treat them as if they are helpless. It's the paternalism that makes people illiterate, not the other way around. Yes. And because it was so challenging, totally new industry around anti-virus engines appeared because of that. And fight is still going. It has got better for sure since the beginning, but we still have hundres of thousands machines as part of botnets, because someone downloded something unsuitable from the internet. But how many times have you heard iPhone malware in the news, other than vuln based? How many times iPhone has been part of the botnet? I can’t even recall a day. If you can’t sideload iPhone, why you are using it? Just go with Android as it is perfect for your needs. If you are already using Android, why even bother to complain about iPhone. You are not forced to use it. iPhone could be good for other people’s needs. Not everything has to suit for everyone. People from the large majority don’t even know about sideloading or even find use for it.
- freedomben 4y ago
  Thank you, reading through most of this thread I feel like I've been dropped into some crazy world where freedom and security are somehow now mutually exclusive, and the user has become an infantile ignoramus who must be diligently protected from herself by the altruistic benevolent dictator, fearlessly and selflessly defending them from the nest of vipers that is every other company/developer/person. war is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength. I couldn't have imagined this level of elitism, arrogance, and paternalism if I had tried. It reminds me a lot of this famous CS Lewis quote: > “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.”
  - nicce 4y ago
    As long as there are options (Android), then iPhone is just a product for specific group. I don’t get it why everything should be the same. Is iPhone so good the everyone is mad because they can’t sideload an app? A lot of iPhone’s success is based on to that very thing that you can’t sideload and paying is easy. Different products for different people.
    - freedomben 4y ago
      If it was as limited as you say, I would agree, just use a different product. That's what I've done for years by using Android. However this philosophy is being extended to nearly everything nowadays. Apple is a leader and has proven that extreme authoritarian and lockdown works and few people will complain. As a result, nearly every company that makes mainstream products just follows their lead. For example the removal of a headphone jack, after which basically all Android makers (even OnePlus) followed suit. Despite the much held opinion on HN of the lockdown beinga feature rather than a bug, the vast majority of people I talk to just use apple because the hardware is nice and everyone else uses them and there is social stigma around being a "green bubble". I don't think Apple's success is because of the draconian policies. The reason why I care so much and think this ideology is harmful is not because I want to side load an iphone. If apple were just a niche product maker, then I couldn't care less what they do. Unfortunately that is not the case. What apple does directly affects me even though I don't buy apple products.

by nicce 4y ago

Barrin92 4y ago

People have been using laptops and desktops (including from apple), on which they can run their own software, for literally decades. Closed systems are new, not open ones. My 60 year old boomer father who has 9 years of education can find his way around on the command line. Yes, people don't understand tech very well any more because we're giving them crippled tech, and treat them as if they are helpless. It's the paternalism that makes people illiterate, not the other way around. It's such a belittling attitude. Only the chosen HN users and managers in Cupertino with their high IQs can control their devices, everyone else must be handed toys lest they might do something wrong. Replace user with voter in your post and you have the bog standard authoritarian argument for banning half of all newspapers. And as for privacy, the EU has the strongest privacy protections on the globe for a reason. We passed privacy regulation so we don't need to rely on Apple to run a sort of protection racket.

nicce 4y ago
> People have been using laptops and desktops (including from apple), on which they can run their own software, for literally decades. Closed systems are new, not open ones. My 60 year old boomer father who has 9 years of education can find his way around on the command line. Yes, people don't understand tech very well any more because we're giving them crippled tech, and treat them as if they are helpless. It's the paternalism that makes people illiterate, not the other way around. Yes. And because it was so challenging, totally new industry around anti-virus engines appeared because of that. And fight is still going. It has got better for sure since the beginning, but we still have hundres of thousands machines as part of botnets, because someone downloded something unsuitable from the internet. But how many times have you heard iPhone malware in the news, other than vuln based? How many times iPhone has been part of the botnet? I can’t even recall a day. If you can’t sideload iPhone, why you are using it? Just go with Android as it is perfect for your needs. If you are already using Android, why even bother to complain about iPhone. You are not forced to use it. iPhone could be good for other people’s needs. Not everything has to suit for everyone. People from the large majority don’t even know about sideloading or even find use for it.
freedomben 4y ago
Thank you, reading through most of this thread I feel like I've been dropped into some crazy world where freedom and security are somehow now mutually exclusive, and the user has become an infantile ignoramus who must be diligently protected from herself by the altruistic benevolent dictator, fearlessly and selflessly defending them from the nest of vipers that is every other company/developer/person. war is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength. I couldn't have imagined this level of elitism, arrogance, and paternalism if I had tried. It reminds me a lot of this famous CS Lewis quote: > “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.”
- nicce 4y ago
  As long as there are options (Android), then iPhone is just a product for specific group. I don’t get it why everything should be the same. Is iPhone so good the everyone is mad because they can’t sideload an app? A lot of iPhone’s success is based on to that very thing that you can’t sideload and paying is easy. Different products for different people.
  - freedomben 4y ago
    If it was as limited as you say, I would agree, just use a different product. That's what I've done for years by using Android. However this philosophy is being extended to nearly everything nowadays. Apple is a leader and has proven that extreme authoritarian and lockdown works and few people will complain. As a result, nearly every company that makes mainstream products just follows their lead. For example the removal of a headphone jack, after which basically all Android makers (even OnePlus) followed suit. Despite the much held opinion on HN of the lockdown beinga feature rather than a bug, the vast majority of people I talk to just use apple because the hardware is nice and everyone else uses them and there is social stigma around being a "green bubble". I don't think Apple's success is because of the draconian policies. The reason why I care so much and think this ideology is harmful is not because I want to side load an iphone. If apple were just a niche product maker, then I couldn't care less what they do. Unfortunately that is not the case. What apple does directly affects me even though I don't buy apple products.