4 ms·

No, it's quite different. With the consoles, publishers are paying for the right to use the console maker's commercial IP (i.e., the Playstation or Xbox logo on

No, it's quite different. With the consoles, publishers are paying for the right to use the console maker's commercial IP (i.e., the Playstation or Xbox logo on their marketing materials) and technical IP (access to software APIs for using the hardware functionality). They do not pay royalties to the console makers for each sale. (Source: I work for a video game company and deal with these contracts...) Quite importantly, publishers don't have to pay the console makers if they want to (a) reverse engineer the console firmware so they can make use of the hardware (b) don't use the console maker's IP in their marketing materials (see Sega v. Accord, still good law), and (c) sell through retailers other than the console storefront. However, consoles are now complex enough that reverse engineering would take longer than the commercial life of the console, so it's cheaper and quicker to just pay the console maker the platform fee. With Apple, you aren't allowed to use their commercial IP for marketing your app, period, but you can use the APIs without paying for inhouse apps. However, there are no alternative marketplaces for apps; even in-house apps must go through the AppStore.

criddell 4y ago
Is it as easy for a developer to release PS5 software as it is to release iOS software?
- gamblor956 4y ago
  That's not relevant to this discussion, because the choice is (a) recreate everything yourself from scratch vs (b) pay monopolistic rates because there are no alternatives. But on that note, a common refrain of iOS developers is what a PITA it is to make apps for iOS given the inferior quality of Apple devtools. Meanwhile, developers generally praise the ease of programming for the PS5.
  - criddell 4y ago
    Of course it's relevant because this discussion is about removing app store restrictions from consumer devices. You're saying there are lots of places for developers to sell PS5 software but that's irrelevant if you still need Sony's blessing and have to pay Sony some type of fee. From a distribution perspective, PS5 developers are not better off than iOS developers. There's no way, AFAIK, for a developer to release a title on either platform without jumping through hoops.
    - gamblor956 4y ago
      No, you don't need Sony's blessing, unless you want to use Sony's software and marketing IP. Unlike Apple, you can reverse engineer the PS5 hardware if you want, and in fact, that is the whole reason that the console market is structured the way it is. See Sega v. Accolade for more information, but in a nutshell, the console maker can't prevent unlicensed games from running on the hardware. However, they don't have to make it easy to run unlicensed games, and they can make devkits and other IP contingent upon legal agreements that forbid using those tools/docs to develop solutions that don't require a license. (This means that the publisher would need to acquire commercial units to go the reverse engineering route.)
      - criddell 4y ago
        Have you read the PS5 TOS[1]? It's pretty restrictive. You aren't allowed to run any unauthorized software on it nor can you reverse engineer the software. Even if you were to avoid touching the OS, there's still the firmware that's covered by this. What you are claiming can't practically be done and AFAIK, nobody is using the PS5 in this way. I don't think you can say with a straight face that the PS5 is more open than the iPhone. I can point you to a bunch of write-your-first-iOS-app tutorials that you can complete after a relatively small investment of time and money. The app you make can only be given away through Apple's app store but it sounds like that's changing. Sounds like Sony's going to have to change as well. Edit: I should add, you can also give people your source code and they can compile it and install the executable on their phone. Is there an analogous process on the PS5? AFAIK, individuals can't register as PS5 developers. Only companies with a current domain name can access any PS5 developer info. [1]: https://doc.dl.playstation.net/doc/ps5-eula/ps5_eula_en.html https://doc.dl.playstation.net/doc/ps5-eula/ps5_eula_en.html
        gamblor956 4y ago
        Yes, I have. A TOS governs your use of the PS5 software, not the hardware, and there are a few decades of court cases on these points. Moreover, reverse engineering is a fair use issue that can't be prohibited with a TOS and there is a case exactly on point.
EMIRELADERO 4y ago
> Quite importantly, publishers don't have to pay the console makers if they want to (a) reverse engineer the console firmware so they can make use of the hardware (b) don't use the console maker's IP in their marketing materials (see Sega v. Accord, still good law), and (c) sell through retailers other than the console storefront. Don't modern consoles all have signature verification? You would still need the company's blessing to even allow your game to be executed on any end user's system no matter how that executable was produced, right?
- gamblor956 4y ago
  Yes to the first, no to the second. Both consoles will run unsigned executable files, but you may need to reverse engineer your own solution for getting those files to run in a user-friendly manner. There is software created for earlier PS and Xbox consoles (for example, Kodi on the Xbox, Linux on the PS). It simply took a few years for third parties to understand the hardware well enough to write their own code to run on the consoles without using the console makers' IP.
  - EMIRELADERO 4y ago
    AFAIK, Linux on the PS (2 and 3) only ran because Sony allowed it to. Nowadays, short of exploits, there is no way for a user to simply load a program into a mainstream console and have it run out of the box without the manufacturer's blessing.

criddell 4y ago

Is it as easy for a developer to release PS5 software as it is to release iOS software?

gamblor956 4y ago
That's not relevant to this discussion, because the choice is (a) recreate everything yourself from scratch vs (b) pay monopolistic rates because there are no alternatives. But on that note, a common refrain of iOS developers is what a PITA it is to make apps for iOS given the inferior quality of Apple devtools. Meanwhile, developers generally praise the ease of programming for the PS5.
- criddell 4y ago
  Of course it's relevant because this discussion is about removing app store restrictions from consumer devices. You're saying there are lots of places for developers to sell PS5 software but that's irrelevant if you still need Sony's blessing and have to pay Sony some type of fee. From a distribution perspective, PS5 developers are not better off than iOS developers. There's no way, AFAIK, for a developer to release a title on either platform without jumping through hoops.
  - gamblor956 4y ago
    No, you don't need Sony's blessing, unless you want to use Sony's software and marketing IP. Unlike Apple, you can reverse engineer the PS5 hardware if you want, and in fact, that is the whole reason that the console market is structured the way it is. See Sega v. Accolade for more information, but in a nutshell, the console maker can't prevent unlicensed games from running on the hardware. However, they don't have to make it easy to run unlicensed games, and they can make devkits and other IP contingent upon legal agreements that forbid using those tools/docs to develop solutions that don't require a license. (This means that the publisher would need to acquire commercial units to go the reverse engineering route.)
    - criddell 4y ago
      Have you read the PS5 TOS[1]? It's pretty restrictive. You aren't allowed to run any unauthorized software on it nor can you reverse engineer the software. Even if you were to avoid touching the OS, there's still the firmware that's covered by this. What you are claiming can't practically be done and AFAIK, nobody is using the PS5 in this way. I don't think you can say with a straight face that the PS5 is more open than the iPhone. I can point you to a bunch of write-your-first-iOS-app tutorials that you can complete after a relatively small investment of time and money. The app you make can only be given away through Apple's app store but it sounds like that's changing. Sounds like Sony's going to have to change as well. Edit: I should add, you can also give people your source code and they can compile it and install the executable on their phone. Is there an analogous process on the PS5? AFAIK, individuals can't register as PS5 developers. Only companies with a current domain name can access any PS5 developer info. [1]: https://doc.dl.playstation.net/doc/ps5-eula/ps5_eula_en.html https://doc.dl.playstation.net/doc/ps5-eula/ps5_eula_en.html
      - gamblor956 4y ago
        Yes, I have. A TOS governs your use of the PS5 software, not the hardware, and there are a few decades of court cases on these points. Moreover, reverse engineering is a fair use issue that can't be prohibited with a TOS and there is a case exactly on point.

EMIRELADERO 4y ago

> Quite importantly, publishers don't have to pay the console makers if they want to (a) reverse engineer the console firmware so they can make use of the hardware (b) don't use the console maker's IP in their marketing materials (see Sega v. Accord, still good law), and (c) sell through retailers other than the console storefront. Don't modern consoles all have signature verification? You would still need the company's blessing to even allow your game to be executed on any end user's system no matter how that executable was produced, right?

gamblor956 4y ago
Yes to the first, no to the second. Both consoles will run unsigned executable files, but you may need to reverse engineer your own solution for getting those files to run in a user-friendly manner. There is software created for earlier PS and Xbox consoles (for example, Kodi on the Xbox, Linux on the PS). It simply took a few years for third parties to understand the hardware well enough to write their own code to run on the consoles without using the console makers' IP.
- EMIRELADERO 4y ago
  AFAIK, Linux on the PS (2 and 3) only ran because Sony allowed it to. Nowadays, short of exploits, there is no way for a user to simply load a program into a mainstream console and have it run out of the box without the manufacturer's blessing.