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> How do you conclude "absolutely a dark pattern" if even one person realizes benefit from it? That's the wrong way to think about Dark Patterns. It's not abou

by dlp211 4y ago

> How do you conclude "absolutely a dark pattern" if even one person realizes benefit from it? That's the wrong way to think about Dark Patterns. It's not about whether they are ever helpful, but whether they are ever harmful. It doesn't matter what your intentions are, it matters how the end user experiences the design. 3 modal boxes to cancel is absolutely harmful when it can be done in 1 and that 1 modal can even include all the reasons you shouldn't cancel. But you get one shot to keep a customer, not three tries to keep and frustrate them. And I have personally given up on cancellation before because it was too complicated/long/frustrating. So yea, dark patterns are real, they are not ethical, and you shouldn't defend them.

mbesto 4y ago
> you shouldn't defend them. This is why we can't have a good faith discussion, because you think I'm defending dark patterns. I'm not. I'm simply asking how the designer determines what is a dark pattern that unilaterally has bad ethical ramifications. > 3 modal boxes to cancel is absolutely harmful when it can be done in 1 and that 1 modal can even include all the reasons you shouldn't cancel. But you get one shot to keep a customer, not three tries to keep and frustrate them. I would argue even 1 modal is too much. Why can't I just click the "CANCEL MY ACCOUNT" button? Isn't a modal that says "TYPE YOUR ORGANIZATION NAME TO CANCEL YOUR SUBSCRIPTION" in hostile to the user? How do you ensure people don't accidentally cancel and then want to reactive with all of their old data? and...and..etc. Do you see why the interpretation of "this is a dark pattern" is almost entirely up to the user perception and has varying degrees of difficulty to the parse as the designer?
- mixmastamyk 4y ago
  No, just use your brain and make a decision. Does that mean you'll always be correct, never mistaken? No again. That's when you drop the mea culpa. The idea that we can never know what is truly unethical is solipsism, maybe with a little sophism thrown in. While an interesting thought experiment, it doesn't support real world needs very well. A concrete plan: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31995084 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31995084

by dlp211 4y ago

mbesto 4y ago

> you shouldn't defend them. This is why we can't have a good faith discussion, because you think I'm defending dark patterns. I'm not. I'm simply asking how the designer determines what is a dark pattern that unilaterally has bad ethical ramifications. > 3 modal boxes to cancel is absolutely harmful when it can be done in 1 and that 1 modal can even include all the reasons you shouldn't cancel. But you get one shot to keep a customer, not three tries to keep and frustrate them. I would argue even 1 modal is too much. Why can't I just click the "CANCEL MY ACCOUNT" button? Isn't a modal that says "TYPE YOUR ORGANIZATION NAME TO CANCEL YOUR SUBSCRIPTION" in hostile to the user? How do you ensure people don't accidentally cancel and then want to reactive with all of their old data? and...and..etc. Do you see why the interpretation of "this is a dark pattern" is almost entirely up to the user perception and has varying degrees of difficulty to the parse as the designer?

mixmastamyk 4y ago
No, just use your brain and make a decision. Does that mean you'll always be correct, never mistaken? No again. That's when you drop the mea culpa. The idea that we can never know what is truly unethical is solipsism, maybe with a little sophism thrown in. While an interesting thought experiment, it doesn't support real world needs very well. A concrete plan: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31995084 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31995084