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> Institutionalized 3p developers should be treated like adversaries The weird part about your statement here, is that you bring up a statement about 3rd party

by stale2002 4y ago

> Institutionalized 3p developers should be treated like adversaries The weird part about your statement here, is that you bring up a statement about 3rd party developers doing bad things, and yet the solutions you gave do nothing except for take extra money from those 3rd parties and gives that money to Apple. If you actually cared about stopping all these bad actions, why didn't you suggest an action that gives Apple zero dollars, and prevents these bad things from happening? I am all for both helping customers, and preventing monopoly app stores. How about we solve all of this, by making sure app developers do not have to pay Apple anything, while also ensuring that app developers follow basic user privacy requirements?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
stevewatson301 4y ago
I think the current App Store model works fine. There could perhaps be more stringent government regulation around app development and data practices, but I don't believe that's the solution either as it would kill off small time devs entirely.
- stale2002 4y ago
  You are missing the point. The current app store model requires giving Apple 15-30%. That is part of the reason why there is now a law, in the EU, that will force the app ecosystem open. And people are pretending like they care about things like privacy, and yet the solution that the person I was responding to gave does not solve the privacy issue, and instead just gives Apple money. The point here, is if you actually care about privacy or data practices, or whatever, then the burden is on you to suggest a solution that both allows everyone to get around the Apple cut, and also solves this problem. Or don't. The laws are already passed, so it is too late to stop Apple from losing all this money.
  - stevewatson301 4y ago
    You're missing the point too. The App store did have some enforcement of privacy and security, which can't exist in a decentralized system that has now been enforced. Sure, app developers would have more freedoms, but we're back to the OP's point - this is not a good thing as they too don't have the user's best interest in mind. Looking at the record of data breaches, I see it's Apple or Google who have held a high standard so far, while app developers have been rampantly abusing users for their own interests.
    - stale2002 4y ago
      > The App store did have some enforcement of privacy and security Ok, thats fine. And if this is something that you care about, then presumably you should recommend a way to do that, while also making sure that Apple gets a 0% cut, so that one of the purposes of the DMA is also fulfilled. > but we're back to the OP's point - this is not a good thing The OP gave no recommendations that actually helped with privacy and security. Instead, they simply thought of a way to give Apple more money. If you care about security, or whatever, fine. But the original proposed solution that the OP gave, was that Apple should charge more money to 3rd party developers. Charging more money to 3rd party developers is not a solution that has much to do with anything related to security. Instead it does not help users, and just gives money to Apple.
cafed00d 4y ago
As a user, why do I care if apple makes money over 3p devs. They’re all screwing over users in the end anyways. But historical data shows Apple has been enormously better at strong-arming devs into behaving properly. That’s why I can safely assume that $0 needs to paid to that scummy dev making a flashlight app; I mean, I can safely assume there’s no app on the App Store adding noise by advertising $1 or $10 or whatever for just a flashlight app. In fact, I’m tech savvy enough to see a scammy app on the App Store. Apple needs to toughen up on 3p even more. I see my girlfriend’s phone or my parents iPhone and notice all these apps for taking a screenshot, saving pdfs etc that trick them into buying subscriptions. Whatever Apple is doing makes me fork over $1000 for a phone. At least I can rely on the fact that using it for calculator or the compass isn’t gonna cost me additional $ — no matter how “reasonably small” that fee is from the developer’s perspective.
- stale2002 4y ago
  > As a user, why do I care if apple makes money over 3p devs. Well the purpose of anti-trust law, and pro competition laws, is usually to prevent companies from using their market power to artificially give themselves a larger cut of the profits. That is one of the reasons why these new laws passed. And all your complaints about security or whatever, ring completely hollow, if you then propose a solution that does nothing to address security, and instead just gives money to Apple. > they’re all screwing over users in the end anyways. If you actually cared about this, then you would have proposed a solution that prevents the bad things from happening to users. Instead, you didn't do that. You instead proposed a solution that just gives money to Apple. > Apple needs to toughen up The point being, that increasing the amount of money given to apple, does not toughen up the app store. Instead it just gives money to Apple. If you cared about toughing up on user protections, you could have given a suggestion that actually does that. But you didn't, once again. You instead just thought of a solution that does nothing to protect users, and instead just gives money to Apple.
  - cafed00d 4y ago
    > Well the purpose of anti-trust law, and pro competition laws Well, ordinary people don’t give a shot about this:- they just care about user experience. That’s the point, I think, you’re missing. User experience trumps any conversation about profits, market share and money. Im not suggesting that Apple is the vanguard of user experience and that govts don’t care about users at all. I am suggesting that given the precedent of the web & windows era of computing, no govt agency has thought of policing 3p devs in favor of user experience the way Apple has. You keep complaining that I’m not providing any solutions: I’m not here to do the Govts job. I am here to vocalize my problem so that the Govts and our community can recognize a perspective. Apple’s policing of 3p devs should not be loosened up: that WILL create problems. Heck, if you want a solution, heck, just codify the laws of the developer program into constitutional legislation. I know, that sounds ridiculous. But that’s my point. 3p devs have to be disincentivized from anti-user, criminal behavior. Not just Apple. Don’t hate on Apple just because they’re able to police them better than anyone else.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

stevewatson301 4y ago

I think the current App Store model works fine. There could perhaps be more stringent government regulation around app development and data practices, but I don't believe that's the solution either as it would kill off small time devs entirely.

stale2002 4y ago
You are missing the point. The current app store model requires giving Apple 15-30%. That is part of the reason why there is now a law, in the EU, that will force the app ecosystem open. And people are pretending like they care about things like privacy, and yet the solution that the person I was responding to gave does not solve the privacy issue, and instead just gives Apple money. The point here, is if you actually care about privacy or data practices, or whatever, then the burden is on you to suggest a solution that both allows everyone to get around the Apple cut, and also solves this problem. Or don't. The laws are already passed, so it is too late to stop Apple from losing all this money.
- stevewatson301 4y ago
  You're missing the point too. The App store did have some enforcement of privacy and security, which can't exist in a decentralized system that has now been enforced. Sure, app developers would have more freedoms, but we're back to the OP's point - this is not a good thing as they too don't have the user's best interest in mind. Looking at the record of data breaches, I see it's Apple or Google who have held a high standard so far, while app developers have been rampantly abusing users for their own interests.
  - stale2002 4y ago
    > The App store did have some enforcement of privacy and security Ok, thats fine. And if this is something that you care about, then presumably you should recommend a way to do that, while also making sure that Apple gets a 0% cut, so that one of the purposes of the DMA is also fulfilled. > but we're back to the OP's point - this is not a good thing The OP gave no recommendations that actually helped with privacy and security. Instead, they simply thought of a way to give Apple more money. If you care about security, or whatever, fine. But the original proposed solution that the OP gave, was that Apple should charge more money to 3rd party developers. Charging more money to 3rd party developers is not a solution that has much to do with anything related to security. Instead it does not help users, and just gives money to Apple.

cafed00d 4y ago

As a user, why do I care if apple makes money over 3p devs. They’re all screwing over users in the end anyways. But historical data shows Apple has been enormously better at strong-arming devs into behaving properly. That’s why I can safely assume that $0 needs to paid to that scummy dev making a flashlight app; I mean, I can safely assume there’s no app on the App Store adding noise by advertising $1 or $10 or whatever for just a flashlight app. In fact, I’m tech savvy enough to see a scammy app on the App Store. Apple needs to toughen up on 3p even more. I see my girlfriend’s phone or my parents iPhone and notice all these apps for taking a screenshot, saving pdfs etc that trick them into buying subscriptions. Whatever Apple is doing makes me fork over $1000 for a phone. At least I can rely on the fact that using it for calculator or the compass isn’t gonna cost me additional $ — no matter how “reasonably small” that fee is from the developer’s perspective.

stale2002 4y ago
> As a user, why do I care if apple makes money over 3p devs. Well the purpose of anti-trust law, and pro competition laws, is usually to prevent companies from using their market power to artificially give themselves a larger cut of the profits. That is one of the reasons why these new laws passed. And all your complaints about security or whatever, ring completely hollow, if you then propose a solution that does nothing to address security, and instead just gives money to Apple. > they’re all screwing over users in the end anyways. If you actually cared about this, then you would have proposed a solution that prevents the bad things from happening to users. Instead, you didn't do that. You instead proposed a solution that just gives money to Apple. > Apple needs to toughen up The point being, that increasing the amount of money given to apple, does not toughen up the app store. Instead it just gives money to Apple. If you cared about toughing up on user protections, you could have given a suggestion that actually does that. But you didn't, once again. You instead just thought of a solution that does nothing to protect users, and instead just gives money to Apple.
- cafed00d 4y ago
  > Well the purpose of anti-trust law, and pro competition laws Well, ordinary people don’t give a shot about this:- they just care about user experience. That’s the point, I think, you’re missing. User experience trumps any conversation about profits, market share and money. Im not suggesting that Apple is the vanguard of user experience and that govts don’t care about users at all. I am suggesting that given the precedent of the web & windows era of computing, no govt agency has thought of policing 3p devs in favor of user experience the way Apple has. You keep complaining that I’m not providing any solutions: I’m not here to do the Govts job. I am here to vocalize my problem so that the Govts and our community can recognize a perspective. Apple’s policing of 3p devs should not be loosened up: that WILL create problems. Heck, if you want a solution, heck, just codify the laws of the developer program into constitutional legislation. I know, that sounds ridiculous. But that’s my point. 3p devs have to be disincentivized from anti-user, criminal behavior. Not just Apple. Don’t hate on Apple just because they’re able to police them better than anyone else.