4 ms·

The market, through competition.

by vorpalhex 4y ago

laserlight 4y ago
Thanks for the clarification, because your previous comment seemed to contradict.
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  Oh, is there a competitor to the app store that will let me get apps for my iOS devices?
  - laserlight 4y ago
    Your reply reads quite snarky. I don't think further discussion would be productive, so I won't continue.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
Bud 4y ago
Is "the market" going to magically provide all the substantial benefits of an Apple-run store for apps, too? No. It's not. "The market" is going to say: sorry users, fuck that, y'all can just magically research all this and provide your own security and privacy from here on out. Which is impossible, of course. Result: much poorer user experience for the vast majority of users. Which is why Apple did it their way in the first place. No, it was not because of revenue. Anyone who says that is either lying or is incredibly lazy and hasn't looked up where Apple actually makes its money.
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  The app store had 85B ($85,000,000,000) gross revenue in 2021. Apple made 30%. https://www.statista.com/statistics/296226/annual-apple-app-store-revenue/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/296226/annual-apple-app-... From https://revenuesandprofits.com/how-apple-makes-money-understanding-apple-business-strategy/ https://revenuesandprofits.com/how-apple-makes-money-underst..., > The devices and platforms help Apple lock-in the consumer into its ecosystem. First, Apple achieves hardware lock-in with the devices. Then, it achieves software lock-in with operating system software, application software, and third-party software and apps. Then, iCloud helps Apple achieve the data lock-in.
  - stevewatson301 4y ago
    As stated elsewhere on this thread, the 30% isn’t entirely going to Apple’s pockets — they have costs such as App Store bandwidth costs, support costs for purchases made, and the likes.
    - laserlight 4y ago
      Let's say Apple pockets all 30% as profit. Who is to say Apple should or shouldn't profit that much from the App Store? Who decides how much they should profit? I find the discussion around commissions shallow and entitled. We should discuss the fundamentals: market definition, competition, abuse of power, etc. PS: In case I couldn't make it clear, my questions are not directed to parent comment.
      - account42 4y ago
        > Let's say Apple pockets all 30% as profit. Who is to say Apple should or shouldn't profit that much from the App Store? All of us. The very same society that gave Apple exclusive control over their "intellectual property" in the first place which allows them to pocket that profit without having to compete for it. The same society that pays for enforcing that exclusivity. Corporations like Apple and their business models are only allowed to exist because we think that suits us - and we should continuously reevaluate that decision and correct it when corporations do more harm than good.
        laserlight 4y ago
        I don't think Apple rests on any intellectual property or exclusivity rights in regard to App Store, but I agree with the general idea that society should be free to exercise its right to change course. Still, I don't think it's right to decide to use this right based on a company's gross margin. The decision should be based on society's fundamental goals.
      - vorpalhex 4y ago
        Do you remember when Apple was engaged in price rigging for ebooks? https://www.nbcnews.com/businessmain/apple-faces-5-year-ban-e-book-price-rigging-conspiracy-6C10825035 https://www.nbcnews.com/businessmain/apple-faces-5-year-ban-... We already have rules about how much control a single company can have over a market and what defines a market. The app store is clearly a market. Apple has an aggressive chokehold on it that artificially inflates prices and prevents competition. As an obvious check - Amazon can't sell me ebooks through it's kindle app without Apple being involved and taking a 30% cut. That is market control and abuse. Let's say you want to build a direct competitor to an Apple product. You can't because Apple actually won't let you do the things it's apps do if you want to be listed in the store. That's called market abuse.
NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
That already happened when the consumer bought an iPhone instead of an Android phone. Is there supposed to be fractal competition all the way down?
- kaba0 4y ago
  For the “competition will select for the best option” to be the case, yes.
mappu 4y ago
The scale of the App Store, or iphone-vs-android in general, or even other markets such as semiconductor lithography - is just so mind-bogglingly massive in scale and cost, that the entire human race only has one or two entrants. It's not currently possible for new entrants to break in at all. Competition is simply non-existent. If the barriers-to-entry are so high that you can't have real market competition, then regulation is the only option left.

The market, through competition.

laserlight 4y ago

Thanks for the clarification, because your previous comment seemed to contradict.

vorpalhex 4y ago
Oh, is there a competitor to the app store that will let me get apps for my iOS devices?
- laserlight 4y ago
  Your reply reads quite snarky. I don't think further discussion would be productive, so I won't continue.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]

Bud 4y ago

Is "the market" going to magically provide all the substantial benefits of an Apple-run store for apps, too? No. It's not. "The market" is going to say: sorry users, fuck that, y'all can just magically research all this and provide your own security and privacy from here on out. Which is impossible, of course. Result: much poorer user experience for the vast majority of users. Which is why Apple did it their way in the first place. No, it was not because of revenue. Anyone who says that is either lying or is incredibly lazy and hasn't looked up where Apple actually makes its money.

vorpalhex 4y ago
The app store had 85B ($85,000,000,000) gross revenue in 2021. Apple made 30%. https://www.statista.com/statistics/296226/annual-apple-app-store-revenue/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/296226/annual-apple-app-... From https://revenuesandprofits.com/how-apple-makes-money-understanding-apple-business-strategy/ https://revenuesandprofits.com/how-apple-makes-money-underst..., > The devices and platforms help Apple lock-in the consumer into its ecosystem. First, Apple achieves hardware lock-in with the devices. Then, it achieves software lock-in with operating system software, application software, and third-party software and apps. Then, iCloud helps Apple achieve the data lock-in.
- stevewatson301 4y ago
  As stated elsewhere on this thread, the 30% isn’t entirely going to Apple’s pockets — they have costs such as App Store bandwidth costs, support costs for purchases made, and the likes.
  - laserlight 4y ago
    Let's say Apple pockets all 30% as profit. Who is to say Apple should or shouldn't profit that much from the App Store? Who decides how much they should profit? I find the discussion around commissions shallow and entitled. We should discuss the fundamentals: market definition, competition, abuse of power, etc. PS: In case I couldn't make it clear, my questions are not directed to parent comment.
    - account42 4y ago
      > Let's say Apple pockets all 30% as profit. Who is to say Apple should or shouldn't profit that much from the App Store? All of us. The very same society that gave Apple exclusive control over their "intellectual property" in the first place which allows them to pocket that profit without having to compete for it. The same society that pays for enforcing that exclusivity. Corporations like Apple and their business models are only allowed to exist because we think that suits us - and we should continuously reevaluate that decision and correct it when corporations do more harm than good.
      - laserlight 4y ago
        I don't think Apple rests on any intellectual property or exclusivity rights in regard to App Store, but I agree with the general idea that society should be free to exercise its right to change course. Still, I don't think it's right to decide to use this right based on a company's gross margin. The decision should be based on society's fundamental goals.
    - vorpalhex 4y ago
      Do you remember when Apple was engaged in price rigging for ebooks? https://www.nbcnews.com/businessmain/apple-faces-5-year-ban-e-book-price-rigging-conspiracy-6C10825035 https://www.nbcnews.com/businessmain/apple-faces-5-year-ban-... We already have rules about how much control a single company can have over a market and what defines a market. The app store is clearly a market. Apple has an aggressive chokehold on it that artificially inflates prices and prevents competition. As an obvious check - Amazon can't sell me ebooks through it's kindle app without Apple being involved and taking a 30% cut. That is market control and abuse. Let's say you want to build a direct competitor to an Apple product. You can't because Apple actually won't let you do the things it's apps do if you want to be listed in the store. That's called market abuse.

NovemberWhiskey 4y ago

That already happened when the consumer bought an iPhone instead of an Android phone. Is there supposed to be fractal competition all the way down?

kaba0 4y ago
For the “competition will select for the best option” to be the case, yes.

mappu 4y ago

The scale of the App Store, or iphone-vs-android in general, or even other markets such as semiconductor lithography - is just so mind-bogglingly massive in scale and cost, that the entire human race only has one or two entrants. It's not currently possible for new entrants to break in at all. Competition is simply non-existent. If the barriers-to-entry are so high that you can't have real market competition, then regulation is the only option left.