9 ms·

I love this just for these three rules: > Allow users to install apps from third-party app stores and sideload directly from the internet. > Allow developers

by vivegi 4y ago

I love this just for these three rules: > Allow users to install apps from third-party app stores and sideload directly from the internet. > Allow developers to offer third-party payment systems in apps and promote offers outside the gatekeeper's platforms. > Ensure that all apps are uninstallable and give users the ability to unsubscribe from core platform services under similar conditions to subscription. and restriction on this behavior: > Require app developers to use certain services or frameworks, including browser engines, payment systems, and identity providers, to be listed in app stores.

n8cpdx 4y ago
People don’t choose iPhone because they want those things, they choose iPhone because they want to be protected from them. Look at the Lumenate app that was just on hacker news yesterday: - Android users are complaining about having to create an account to use it - iOS users just pushed a button and didn’t even have to share their email or make a password - iOS users who subscribe have one place to manage their subscription, know that Apple will remind them _before_ the subscription auto renews, and know that they won’t be trapped or tricked into continuing to pay. I don’t know why people on HN think somehow third party payment services are going to be better for Apple’s users than Apple has been. And I don’t know why HN users are so eager to ignore the disaster that the install-exe-from-internet computing mode has been for security. If you hate Apple so much, use an Android, but once again, keep your grubby hands off my iPhone. I hate that Europeans are trying to make my quality of life worse, like they have been for years with cookie popup bullshit.
- ko27 4y ago
  > People don’t choose iPhone because they want those things Your argument is ridiculous. People didn't choose iPhone because they wanted to deprive themself of an option to switch browsers engines or payment vendors either. People actually chose iPhones for a thousand other reasons.
  - ynniv 4y ago
    No one chooses phones based on browser engines. Why anyone is upset with Apple improving security by only allowing executable pages in Safari is beyond my comprehension.
    - ko27 4y ago
      That's my point. People won't stop buying iPhones whether Apple allows or forbids those things. So the argument made by the comment I replied to, that people chose iPhone over Android because of browser engines, payment vendors... makes zero sense.
    - saiya-jin 4y ago
      I would, after this and switch to usb-c. 3 months ago I was deciding where to put 1300 euro, apple vs samsung top of the line, and samsung won. This was 1 out of cca 4-5 points that decided it (sideloading, notch, usb-c, better zoom photos for family/nature, weight... apple had only battery as plus). Firefox mobile with ublock origin (and other plugins) makes general internet seriously usable. Sideloading for me is not about some cracked games. I have older (otherwise still good) Pioneer receiver that had failing remote, and official (but unsupported and removed from store) app to control it. Otherwise I need to shell 500-1000$ for new one of comparable quality. Clearly, for some obscure reason nobody can explain, not everybody in this world has your mindset, values and decisions. Something to learn here.
      - nicce 4y ago
        I would not buy Samsung if I care my privacy. It would require custom ROM installation to get rid of all that pre-installed bloatware and data collection. Non-tech user has no idea about this nor have way to fix it, and they might be still happy. Like said, different values and decisions.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - sircastor 4y ago
        It sounds like your issue is with Pioneer, who isn't supporting their old hardware. It's nice that side-loading has offered you a workaround, but is that a make-or-break thing for you? Would you have still bought the Samsung phone if side-loading didn't solve that problem?
- iamtheworstdev 4y ago
  i literally have never chosen an iphone for that reason and no know one who has.
  - n8cpdx 4y ago
    Good for you. Have you considered that you live in a bubble? People buy iPhones because they work better, and end-to-end control of the experience is how Apple does that. If you don’t want a curated experience, there is Android. Given the browser choice utopia that is Android, it is hard to believe iPhone does any business at all, if hacker news comments are to be taken seriously.
- concinds 4y ago
  German politicians were discussing banning Telegram. With centralized monopoly App Stores, they easily can. With sideloading, they can't under current frameworks; and they're unlikely to mandate remote-uninstalls of "illegal apps" anytime soon. Sure, central subscription management and "Login with Apple" are convenient, but I'd much rather governments not have the ability to block apps on my personal devices.
  - stevewatson301 4y ago
    While I agree with your sentiment, how do you think that might work out if phone manufacturers were required to have an app ID blocklist? As an example (I’m not sure what the current state of things is on Firefox these days as it has been a long time since I’ve used it), Firefox ships with a blocklist of extensions that works even if you get the extension from a third-party source. This was mostly used to prevent users from installing malware, but if governments have problems banning an app they’ll just go this route and require phone manufacturers to do the same.
- Barrin92 4y ago
  then don't install third party apps on your iPhone and only install Apple software? Like I literally cannot understand the thought process behind this. Someone needs to physically restrain you from installing an app that you don't want? Nobody is forcing you to do anything, other people just get more options. People here on HN support this because people here like software freedom instead of being treated like infants. Running any executable you want on your device is the foundation of free personal computing without having third parties control what you can do with your machine. Nobody is putting their hands on your iPhone, it's the other way around, Apple doesn't get to put their paternalistic hands on mine from now on.
  - nicce 4y ago
    > then don't install third party apps on your iPhone and only install Apple software? Like I literally cannot understand the thought process behind this. Someone needs to physically restrain you from installing an app that you don't want? Because not everyone understands tech very well. There will be tons of social engineering campaigns to make you install the app you don’t want. And enough of them will succeed. And have succeed on Android. We might also see a shift where big players will not release their apps for App store, because they want to collect more data from you. I think for example Apple’s cross app tracking notification is dependent on the app store policy. It is really complicated problem. Giving a stock Android for some non-tech user is much more risky than giving stock iPhone at the moment. When there are too many features, the user is the biggest risk. While HN audience might not be in part of that, a major population is.
    - Barrin92 4y ago
      People have been using laptops and desktops (including from apple), on which they can run their own software, for literally decades. Closed systems are new, not open ones. My 60 year old boomer father who has 9 years of education can find his way around on the command line. Yes, people don't understand tech very well any more because we're giving them crippled tech, and treat them as if they are helpless. It's the paternalism that makes people illiterate, not the other way around. It's such a belittling attitude. Only the chosen HN users and managers in Cupertino with their high IQs can control their devices, everyone else must be handed toys lest they might do something wrong. Replace user with voter in your post and you have the bog standard authoritarian argument for banning half of all newspapers. And as for privacy, the EU has the strongest privacy protections on the globe for a reason. We passed privacy regulation so we don't need to rely on Apple to run a sort of protection racket.
- vivegi 4y ago
  1. Lets say I already have a payment service provider I have negotiated with for my app. In India, for example, we have Unified Payment Interface that has zero fees for upto ~$1500 (USD) per transaction. Why should I be forced to use Apple's service? I am looking at this move by EU to push for change in Apple's behavior globally. 2. No one is forcing thirdparty app stores on users. You can continue to roam within the Apple walled garden appstore for eternity and no one is stopping you. It is only Apple that is forcing out thirdparty app stores from their rent-seeking monopoly and restricting consumer choice and developers' freedom in the garb of protecting users.
- arepublicadoceu 4y ago
  > People don’t choose iPhone because they want those things, they choose iPhone because they want to be protected from them. Hey, it’s me. A person that choose iPhone for a different set of things and absolutely don’t want to be “protected” from sideloading an open source YouTube alternative, or an open source emulator to play games from my childhood (I know, the horror).
  - n8cpdx 4y ago
    Why did you choose iPhone? Are you confident that EU bureaucrats can do a better job at keeping those reasons in place than the company that build the platform you chose? If sideloading was more important to you than the experience afforded by iPhone, why wouldn’t you choose Android?
    - ThatPlayer 4y ago
      >If sideloading was more important to you than the experience afforded by iPhone, why wouldn’t you choose Android? Why not both? Why can't I have some of the experience afforded by iPhone as well as sideloading? Just because at some point I compromised and decided the iPhone experience was more important than sideloading doesn't mean I no longer want sideloading.

by vivegi 4y ago

n8cpdx 4y ago

People don’t choose iPhone because they want those things, they choose iPhone because they want to be protected from them. Look at the Lumenate app that was just on hacker news yesterday: - Android users are complaining about having to create an account to use it - iOS users just pushed a button and didn’t even have to share their email or make a password - iOS users who subscribe have one place to manage their subscription, know that Apple will remind them _before_ the subscription auto renews, and know that they won’t be trapped or tricked into continuing to pay. I don’t know why people on HN think somehow third party payment services are going to be better for Apple’s users than Apple has been. And I don’t know why HN users are so eager to ignore the disaster that the install-exe-from-internet computing mode has been for security. If you hate Apple so much, use an Android, but once again, keep your grubby hands off my iPhone. I hate that Europeans are trying to make my quality of life worse, like they have been for years with cookie popup bullshit.

ko27 4y ago
> People don’t choose iPhone because they want those things Your argument is ridiculous. People didn't choose iPhone because they wanted to deprive themself of an option to switch browsers engines or payment vendors either. People actually chose iPhones for a thousand other reasons.
- ynniv 4y ago
  No one chooses phones based on browser engines. Why anyone is upset with Apple improving security by only allowing executable pages in Safari is beyond my comprehension.
  - ko27 4y ago
    That's my point. People won't stop buying iPhones whether Apple allows or forbids those things. So the argument made by the comment I replied to, that people chose iPhone over Android because of browser engines, payment vendors... makes zero sense.
  - saiya-jin 4y ago
    I would, after this and switch to usb-c. 3 months ago I was deciding where to put 1300 euro, apple vs samsung top of the line, and samsung won. This was 1 out of cca 4-5 points that decided it (sideloading, notch, usb-c, better zoom photos for family/nature, weight... apple had only battery as plus). Firefox mobile with ublock origin (and other plugins) makes general internet seriously usable. Sideloading for me is not about some cracked games. I have older (otherwise still good) Pioneer receiver that had failing remote, and official (but unsupported and removed from store) app to control it. Otherwise I need to shell 500-1000$ for new one of comparable quality. Clearly, for some obscure reason nobody can explain, not everybody in this world has your mindset, values and decisions. Something to learn here.
    - nicce 4y ago
      I would not buy Samsung if I care my privacy. It would require custom ROM installation to get rid of all that pre-installed bloatware and data collection. Non-tech user has no idea about this nor have way to fix it, and they might be still happy. Like said, different values and decisions.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - sircastor 4y ago
      It sounds like your issue is with Pioneer, who isn't supporting their old hardware. It's nice that side-loading has offered you a workaround, but is that a make-or-break thing for you? Would you have still bought the Samsung phone if side-loading didn't solve that problem?
iamtheworstdev 4y ago
i literally have never chosen an iphone for that reason and no know one who has.
- n8cpdx 4y ago
  Good for you. Have you considered that you live in a bubble? People buy iPhones because they work better, and end-to-end control of the experience is how Apple does that. If you don’t want a curated experience, there is Android. Given the browser choice utopia that is Android, it is hard to believe iPhone does any business at all, if hacker news comments are to be taken seriously.
concinds 4y ago
German politicians were discussing banning Telegram. With centralized monopoly App Stores, they easily can. With sideloading, they can't under current frameworks; and they're unlikely to mandate remote-uninstalls of "illegal apps" anytime soon. Sure, central subscription management and "Login with Apple" are convenient, but I'd much rather governments not have the ability to block apps on my personal devices.
- stevewatson301 4y ago
  While I agree with your sentiment, how do you think that might work out if phone manufacturers were required to have an app ID blocklist? As an example (I’m not sure what the current state of things is on Firefox these days as it has been a long time since I’ve used it), Firefox ships with a blocklist of extensions that works even if you get the extension from a third-party source. This was mostly used to prevent users from installing malware, but if governments have problems banning an app they’ll just go this route and require phone manufacturers to do the same.
Barrin92 4y ago
then don't install third party apps on your iPhone and only install Apple software? Like I literally cannot understand the thought process behind this. Someone needs to physically restrain you from installing an app that you don't want? Nobody is forcing you to do anything, other people just get more options. People here on HN support this because people here like software freedom instead of being treated like infants. Running any executable you want on your device is the foundation of free personal computing without having third parties control what you can do with your machine. Nobody is putting their hands on your iPhone, it's the other way around, Apple doesn't get to put their paternalistic hands on mine from now on.
- nicce 4y ago
  > then don't install third party apps on your iPhone and only install Apple software? Like I literally cannot understand the thought process behind this. Someone needs to physically restrain you from installing an app that you don't want? Because not everyone understands tech very well. There will be tons of social engineering campaigns to make you install the app you don’t want. And enough of them will succeed. And have succeed on Android. We might also see a shift where big players will not release their apps for App store, because they want to collect more data from you. I think for example Apple’s cross app tracking notification is dependent on the app store policy. It is really complicated problem. Giving a stock Android for some non-tech user is much more risky than giving stock iPhone at the moment. When there are too many features, the user is the biggest risk. While HN audience might not be in part of that, a major population is.
  - Barrin92 4y ago
    People have been using laptops and desktops (including from apple), on which they can run their own software, for literally decades. Closed systems are new, not open ones. My 60 year old boomer father who has 9 years of education can find his way around on the command line. Yes, people don't understand tech very well any more because we're giving them crippled tech, and treat them as if they are helpless. It's the paternalism that makes people illiterate, not the other way around. It's such a belittling attitude. Only the chosen HN users and managers in Cupertino with their high IQs can control their devices, everyone else must be handed toys lest they might do something wrong. Replace user with voter in your post and you have the bog standard authoritarian argument for banning half of all newspapers. And as for privacy, the EU has the strongest privacy protections on the globe for a reason. We passed privacy regulation so we don't need to rely on Apple to run a sort of protection racket.
vivegi 4y ago
1. Lets say I already have a payment service provider I have negotiated with for my app. In India, for example, we have Unified Payment Interface that has zero fees for upto ~$1500 (USD) per transaction. Why should I be forced to use Apple's service? I am looking at this move by EU to push for change in Apple's behavior globally. 2. No one is forcing thirdparty app stores on users. You can continue to roam within the Apple walled garden appstore for eternity and no one is stopping you. It is only Apple that is forcing out thirdparty app stores from their rent-seeking monopoly and restricting consumer choice and developers' freedom in the garb of protecting users.
arepublicadoceu 4y ago
> People don’t choose iPhone because they want those things, they choose iPhone because they want to be protected from them. Hey, it’s me. A person that choose iPhone for a different set of things and absolutely don’t want to be “protected” from sideloading an open source YouTube alternative, or an open source emulator to play games from my childhood (I know, the horror).
- n8cpdx 4y ago
  Why did you choose iPhone? Are you confident that EU bureaucrats can do a better job at keeping those reasons in place than the company that build the platform you chose? If sideloading was more important to you than the experience afforded by iPhone, why wouldn’t you choose Android?
  - ThatPlayer 4y ago
    >If sideloading was more important to you than the experience afforded by iPhone, why wouldn’t you choose Android? Why not both? Why can't I have some of the experience afforded by iPhone as well as sideloading? Just because at some point I compromised and decided the iPhone experience was more important than sideloading doesn't mean I no longer want sideloading.