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Maybe fines like this could fund UBI? Society could vote on a number of measures designed to create a sustainable economy. For example, instead of carbon tax c

Maybe fines like this could fund UBI? Society could vote on a number of measures designed to create a sustainable economy. For example, instead of carbon tax credits, we could just set a ceiling on carbon emissions and let companies pay the fine, then send direct payments to everyone. Or set a living wage of $20/hr and make companies directly responsible for paying the shortfall that the government makes up in welfare payments. Or even create a national debt tax, where any cost overruns would fall on the companies who lobbied most. Basically make all of the amoral sources of profit no longer profitable, to starve the beast of multinational corporations so that they can't overtake world governments. Kind of a trickle-up approach to economics to immediately put cash in people's pockets and incentivize automation instead of the daily grind.

rglullis 4y ago
I would not want to receive any money that I know to come from a dirty source. It makes me complicit in the act.
- zackmorris 4y ago
  That's what money is
tgv 4y ago
> Maybe fines like this could fund UBI? What? Are you counting on steady fines to provide basic life support? If that's not bizarre enough: how much do you think UBI (in the EU) would cost? There are 450M people in the EU. Giving the adults around €20k per year would require €7200B.
- zackmorris 4y ago
  Just to clarify: that €7200B is currently in the hands of corporations and the wealthy. That's spun to us as economic fact (can't have wealth redistribution!!!) but it comes down to tax policy. We could all vote to raise taxes on high incomes, or even enforce existing tax codes, but we've been told that would put the brakes on the economy. Which is code for the riffraff getting the money instead of a few rich guys. Having to manufacture the money for UBI is a self-limiting belief. The money is already there, but we're so used to giving it all away as unearned income to investors, and even participating in the skimming as investors, that it feels like there is no money. By design because that's what The Matrix is.
caramelcustard 4y ago
That implies that UBI is agreed upon all around the world, which it isn't. "...we could just set a ceiling on carbon emissions..." that already exists and those ceilings aren't honoured by manufacturing-heavy regions around the world, as there is no way to enforce any sort of responsibility. Also consider that most tech companies are moving to carbon neutrality. "...set a living wage of $20/hr ..."...where exactly? Worldwide? NA only? Any consideration for inflation? Perhaps you got an expalanation for those who are working skilled jobs and are currently earning 20 USD per hour on why someone who works a less skilled job should suddenly earn the same amount? Worlds history says that trying to equalize everyones skills leads to skilled workers looking for greener pastures. "...make companies directly responsible for paying the shortfall that the government makes up in welfare payments."...so making companies responsible for governments decisions in giving away money to recipients that might not even be related to the industries the companies are operating in? "...create a national debt tax, where any cost overruns would fall on the companies who lobbied most." that's...not how that works. "...to immediately put cash in people's pockets and incentivize automation instead of the daily grind." kinda amusing how it goes right after "...starve the beast of multinational corporations so that they can't overtake world governments." considering that many of those boogeyman corporations are the ones working on automation and...employing highly skilled researchers, engineers and blue collar workers.
- zackmorris 4y ago
  All good points, and all controversial. We're so used to looking at everything through a capitalist lens, that any policies designed to help the average working Joe seem quaint or even downright laughable: "...there is no way to enforce any sort of responsibility..." <- funding enforcement "...Worlds history says that trying to equalize everyones skills leads to skilled workers looking for greener pastures..." <- unions "...so making companies responsible for governments decisions in giving away money to recipients that might not even be related to the industries the companies are operating in?..." <- this is the current lobbying system "(companies paying national debt) ...that's...not how that works..." <- overruns are currently paid disproportionately by the working poor and future generations "(starve the beast of multinational corporations) ...considering that many of those boogeyman corporations are the ones working on automation..." <- for themselves From my perspective, we've created just about the least efficient, least equitable system possible. We have billions of people around the world toiling the entirety of their lives just to survive month to month. If they had any free time at all, they could work towards at least some level of autonomy. But that time is denied to them by the same corporations that profit from them. And we enthusiastically keep putting those corporations in charge of everything, because they provide the goods and services that we depend on. We keep re-creating global feudalism and aristocracy, to the point of even letting corporations gatekeep the way we live and work in the name of security, for a modest fee of course. The fact that Apple and Google are at the leading edge of wealth inequality is perhaps the greatest tragedy of the modern era. It truly breaks my heart.
samatman 4y ago
This is a terrible idea. Do you want people rioting and demanding that companies not comply with regulations so they can buy food? What other outcome could possibly come from this?
- zackmorris 4y ago
  They're rioting now because the companies have the food and keep raising prices. I'm talking about eliminating that inequity by turning profiteering into UBI. It is true that people shouldn't become dependent on malfeasance. All I'm saying is, why should CEOs and wealthy financiers be the only ones who get to?

rglullis 4y ago

I would not want to receive any money that I know to come from a dirty source. It makes me complicit in the act.

zackmorris 4y ago
That's what money is

tgv 4y ago

> Maybe fines like this could fund UBI? What? Are you counting on steady fines to provide basic life support? If that's not bizarre enough: how much do you think UBI (in the EU) would cost? There are 450M people in the EU. Giving the adults around €20k per year would require €7200B.

zackmorris 4y ago
Just to clarify: that €7200B is currently in the hands of corporations and the wealthy. That's spun to us as economic fact (can't have wealth redistribution!!!) but it comes down to tax policy. We could all vote to raise taxes on high incomes, or even enforce existing tax codes, but we've been told that would put the brakes on the economy. Which is code for the riffraff getting the money instead of a few rich guys. Having to manufacture the money for UBI is a self-limiting belief. The money is already there, but we're so used to giving it all away as unearned income to investors, and even participating in the skimming as investors, that it feels like there is no money. By design because that's what The Matrix is.

caramelcustard 4y ago

That implies that UBI is agreed upon all around the world, which it isn't. "...we could just set a ceiling on carbon emissions..." that already exists and those ceilings aren't honoured by manufacturing-heavy regions around the world, as there is no way to enforce any sort of responsibility. Also consider that most tech companies are moving to carbon neutrality. "...set a living wage of $20/hr ..."...where exactly? Worldwide? NA only? Any consideration for inflation? Perhaps you got an expalanation for those who are working skilled jobs and are currently earning 20 USD per hour on why someone who works a less skilled job should suddenly earn the same amount? Worlds history says that trying to equalize everyones skills leads to skilled workers looking for greener pastures. "...make companies directly responsible for paying the shortfall that the government makes up in welfare payments."...so making companies responsible for governments decisions in giving away money to recipients that might not even be related to the industries the companies are operating in? "...create a national debt tax, where any cost overruns would fall on the companies who lobbied most." that's...not how that works. "...to immediately put cash in people's pockets and incentivize automation instead of the daily grind." kinda amusing how it goes right after "...starve the beast of multinational corporations so that they can't overtake world governments." considering that many of those boogeyman corporations are the ones working on automation and...employing highly skilled researchers, engineers and blue collar workers.

zackmorris 4y ago
All good points, and all controversial. We're so used to looking at everything through a capitalist lens, that any policies designed to help the average working Joe seem quaint or even downright laughable: "...there is no way to enforce any sort of responsibility..." <- funding enforcement "...Worlds history says that trying to equalize everyones skills leads to skilled workers looking for greener pastures..." <- unions "...so making companies responsible for governments decisions in giving away money to recipients that might not even be related to the industries the companies are operating in?..." <- this is the current lobbying system "(companies paying national debt) ...that's...not how that works..." <- overruns are currently paid disproportionately by the working poor and future generations "(starve the beast of multinational corporations) ...considering that many of those boogeyman corporations are the ones working on automation..." <- for themselves From my perspective, we've created just about the least efficient, least equitable system possible. We have billions of people around the world toiling the entirety of their lives just to survive month to month. If they had any free time at all, they could work towards at least some level of autonomy. But that time is denied to them by the same corporations that profit from them. And we enthusiastically keep putting those corporations in charge of everything, because they provide the goods and services that we depend on. We keep re-creating global feudalism and aristocracy, to the point of even letting corporations gatekeep the way we live and work in the name of security, for a modest fee of course. The fact that Apple and Google are at the leading edge of wealth inequality is perhaps the greatest tragedy of the modern era. It truly breaks my heart.

samatman 4y ago

This is a terrible idea. Do you want people rioting and demanding that companies not comply with regulations so they can buy food? What other outcome could possibly come from this?

zackmorris 4y ago
They're rioting now because the companies have the food and keep raising prices. I'm talking about eliminating that inequity by turning profiteering into UBI. It is true that people shouldn't become dependent on malfeasance. All I'm saying is, why should CEOs and wealthy financiers be the only ones who get to?