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I was disappointed to see Pinterest and Facebook as prime examples of design. These are companies found on dark patterns, employing hostile methodology to manip

I was disappointed to see Pinterest and Facebook as prime examples of design. These are companies found on dark patterns, employing hostile methodology to manipulate their users. Yes, they are popular and use carefully selected colors etc. but are horrible below the pretty paint. I wish the page would mention the responsibility of designers to the end users of their work. I'd recommend Mike Monteiro's "Broken by Design" to the authors of the page.

nerdponx 4y ago
I would argue that Facebook and Pinterest succeeded in spite of their respective chaotic and difficult UX designs.
- mbesto 4y ago
  Similarly there is some good research about this regarding Amazon. In short, if you tried to mimic Amazon's UX as a ecommerce startup, you'd probably fail: Paradoxically, Amazon's design may work well for Amazon itself. The company is simply so different from other ecommerce sites that what's good for Amazon is not good for normal sites.[0] [0] https://www.nngroup.com/articles/amazon-no-e-commerce-role-model/ https://www.nngroup.com/articles/amazon-no-e-commerce-role-m...
radiorental 4y ago
UXer with 25+ years here. To be respectfully blunt "the responsibility of designers to the end users of their work." No, it's our job to make the user's goals as seamless as possible - within the functional constraints of the business. If that business is to fuck users privacy over, we must operate within that overarching environment or GTFO. To be clear, I dont understand how conscientious UXer's function at a place like Facebook, unless the plot of Servance is a reality?
- mixmastamyk 4y ago
  Professional ethics are a thing. "I was just following orders" not a valid excuse. This goes for developers and data folks as well (everyone), so not like designers are being targeted.
  - mbesto 4y ago
    > Professional ethics are a thing. "I was just following orders" not a valid excuse. Let's unpack this one for a second. First, the idea of dark patterns in UI/UX is a relatively new concept, so the ethics are naturally going to get muddy. So pretending to be handy wavy about "just be ethical" is not fair to UX/UI people. Let's take an example dark pattern of "are you sure you want to cancel" taking 3 modals to complete. Each modal tells you something about the app that you may not have. The UX'r does an A/B test and finds that only 23% finish cancelling after implementation of the 3-step modal. So to one user this is a nuisance having jump through 3 modals, but to another user they learned on modal #2 about a product feature they didn't know was possible and decided not to cancel. Is the UX'r morally wrong for putting in the 3-modal even though in one case it was a nuisance and in another it was beneficial?
    - dleslie 4y ago
      The obvious ethical alternative is to make it an easy process to cancel and an easy process to renew and restore cancelled accounts.
      - mbesto 4y ago
        > an easy process to renew and restore cancelled accounts. What if the person was cancelling and was never given the opportunity to know there was a potential benefit? The ethical thing would also be to completely delete all of their data (including their login). They now come back and you say "sorry we can't restore all of your data, you need to start over". Didn't you just create (1) a bad UX and (2) a new dark pattern? Again, my point isn't whether the 3-modal pattern is a dark pattern, but rather that dark patterns are incredibly difficult to define, are novel and thus require nuance when determining their ethical ramifications.
        mixmastamyk 4y ago
        It's not difficult at all, when you understand the workflow and are honest with the user about the ramifications. If honesty is difficult, that is the problem.
- CharlesW 4y ago
  > To be clear, I dont understand how conscientious UXer's function at a place like Facebook, unless the plot of Servance is a reality? Seems unfair to call out UX designers when everyone who contributes to Facebook's mission is as culpable.
  - radiorental 4y ago
    didn't mean to only be unfair to my kind, just a UX trait to not speak on the behalf of or make assumptions about other's motivations without direct domain knowledge or research.
- jl6 4y ago
  > To be clear, I dont understand how conscientious UXer's function at a place like Facebook, unless the plot of Servance is a reality? Fully ethical work that puts dinner on the table is a rare luxury, unfortunately. In the meantime, there are many rationalizations to choose from. I imagine a popular one at Facebook is something about the ends justifying the means.
  - rexpop 4y ago
    Insofar as "Severance" is a metaphor for compartmentalization, yes: it's a ubiquitous reality.
  - moomoo11 4y ago
    You can’t put dinner on the table for 150k, you can only do that with at least 180k + 250k RSU (I have no idea what designers make at MANGA so I’m using average senior engineer comp) Come on now!
    - neura 4y ago
      I'm reading this as sarcasm, but while you can "put dinner on the table for even less", it's still very rare (in over 20 years of my experience in the industry) to find a company that pays more than non-profit salaries and you can't find things to feel terrible about. Heck, some of the non-profits I've worked with were some of the most terrible ones.
      - moomoo11 4y ago
        The only reason to work any non founding team member would aspire to go to MANGA is the compensation. Just going to be real here (no shame or anything in admitting the truth), if it was to “work on challenging problems” there are numerous ways to do that without working at MANGA. NOBODY else pays 400k minimums for senior level roles. But 150-200k is common for non MANGA and that’s more than enough in the USA in most places. But you can’t buy both a Plaid and a big house at the same time, and fund many luxury hobbies if you go down that path. All I’m saying is.. be real :)
  - 4y ago
- lucideer 4y ago
  > To be respectfully blunt "the responsibility of designers to the end users of their work." > No, it's our job to ... To be respectfully more blunt, it seems naïve to assume responsibility and job overlap completely in a world with Facebooks, et Al, unless we're wilfully abandoning ethics (or have interesting political views).
ramraj07 4y ago
As oliwander says (at least in the movie), “after all, he who must not be named did great things. Terrible, to be sure, but great nonetheless.”
turnsout 4y ago
Again, some context. When this was written (2012), Facebook had a relatively spare, unobtrusive design that focused on user content. In contrast to what came before (MySpace), Facebook felt modern and even human-centered. Of course, in a remarkably short amount of time, Facebook threw away that goodwill by chasing "engagement" at any and all costs. Personally, I would not have praised Facebook as a model for great design even in 2012, but it's more understandable in that historical context.

nerdponx 4y ago

I would argue that Facebook and Pinterest succeeded in spite of their respective chaotic and difficult UX designs.

mbesto 4y ago
Similarly there is some good research about this regarding Amazon. In short, if you tried to mimic Amazon's UX as a ecommerce startup, you'd probably fail: Paradoxically, Amazon's design may work well for Amazon itself. The company is simply so different from other ecommerce sites that what's good for Amazon is not good for normal sites.[0] [0] https://www.nngroup.com/articles/amazon-no-e-commerce-role-model/ https://www.nngroup.com/articles/amazon-no-e-commerce-role-m...

radiorental 4y ago

UXer with 25+ years here. To be respectfully blunt "the responsibility of designers to the end users of their work." No, it's our job to make the user's goals as seamless as possible - within the functional constraints of the business. If that business is to fuck users privacy over, we must operate within that overarching environment or GTFO. To be clear, I dont understand how conscientious UXer's function at a place like Facebook, unless the plot of Servance is a reality?

mixmastamyk 4y ago
Professional ethics are a thing. "I was just following orders" not a valid excuse. This goes for developers and data folks as well (everyone), so not like designers are being targeted.
- mbesto 4y ago
  > Professional ethics are a thing. "I was just following orders" not a valid excuse. Let's unpack this one for a second. First, the idea of dark patterns in UI/UX is a relatively new concept, so the ethics are naturally going to get muddy. So pretending to be handy wavy about "just be ethical" is not fair to UX/UI people. Let's take an example dark pattern of "are you sure you want to cancel" taking 3 modals to complete. Each modal tells you something about the app that you may not have. The UX'r does an A/B test and finds that only 23% finish cancelling after implementation of the 3-step modal. So to one user this is a nuisance having jump through 3 modals, but to another user they learned on modal #2 about a product feature they didn't know was possible and decided not to cancel. Is the UX'r morally wrong for putting in the 3-modal even though in one case it was a nuisance and in another it was beneficial?
  - dleslie 4y ago
    The obvious ethical alternative is to make it an easy process to cancel and an easy process to renew and restore cancelled accounts.
    - mbesto 4y ago
      > an easy process to renew and restore cancelled accounts. What if the person was cancelling and was never given the opportunity to know there was a potential benefit? The ethical thing would also be to completely delete all of their data (including their login). They now come back and you say "sorry we can't restore all of your data, you need to start over". Didn't you just create (1) a bad UX and (2) a new dark pattern? Again, my point isn't whether the 3-modal pattern is a dark pattern, but rather that dark patterns are incredibly difficult to define, are novel and thus require nuance when determining their ethical ramifications.
      - mixmastamyk 4y ago
        It's not difficult at all, when you understand the workflow and are honest with the user about the ramifications. If honesty is difficult, that is the problem.
CharlesW 4y ago
> To be clear, I dont understand how conscientious UXer's function at a place like Facebook, unless the plot of Servance is a reality? Seems unfair to call out UX designers when everyone who contributes to Facebook's mission is as culpable.
- radiorental 4y ago
  didn't mean to only be unfair to my kind, just a UX trait to not speak on the behalf of or make assumptions about other's motivations without direct domain knowledge or research.
jl6 4y ago
> To be clear, I dont understand how conscientious UXer's function at a place like Facebook, unless the plot of Servance is a reality? Fully ethical work that puts dinner on the table is a rare luxury, unfortunately. In the meantime, there are many rationalizations to choose from. I imagine a popular one at Facebook is something about the ends justifying the means.
- rexpop 4y ago
  Insofar as "Severance" is a metaphor for compartmentalization, yes: it's a ubiquitous reality.
- moomoo11 4y ago
  You can’t put dinner on the table for 150k, you can only do that with at least 180k + 250k RSU (I have no idea what designers make at MANGA so I’m using average senior engineer comp) Come on now!
  - neura 4y ago
    I'm reading this as sarcasm, but while you can "put dinner on the table for even less", it's still very rare (in over 20 years of my experience in the industry) to find a company that pays more than non-profit salaries and you can't find things to feel terrible about. Heck, some of the non-profits I've worked with were some of the most terrible ones.
    - moomoo11 4y ago
      The only reason to work any non founding team member would aspire to go to MANGA is the compensation. Just going to be real here (no shame or anything in admitting the truth), if it was to “work on challenging problems” there are numerous ways to do that without working at MANGA. NOBODY else pays 400k minimums for senior level roles. But 150-200k is common for non MANGA and that’s more than enough in the USA in most places. But you can’t buy both a Plaid and a big house at the same time, and fund many luxury hobbies if you go down that path. All I’m saying is.. be real :)
- 4y ago
lucideer 4y ago
> To be respectfully blunt "the responsibility of designers to the end users of their work." > No, it's our job to ... To be respectfully more blunt, it seems naïve to assume responsibility and job overlap completely in a world with Facebooks, et Al, unless we're wilfully abandoning ethics (or have interesting political views).

ramraj07 4y ago

As oliwander says (at least in the movie), “after all, he who must not be named did great things. Terrible, to be sure, but great nonetheless.”

turnsout 4y ago

Again, some context. When this was written (2012), Facebook had a relatively spare, unobtrusive design that focused on user content. In contrast to what came before (MySpace), Facebook felt modern and even human-centered. Of course, in a remarkably short amount of time, Facebook threw away that goodwill by chasing "engagement" at any and all costs. Personally, I would not have praised Facebook as a model for great design even in 2012, but it's more understandable in that historical context.