4 ms·

Not really similar. Sony, MS, and Nintendo already allow games to be purchased from other retailers, and always have. (See, for example, Game Stop, Best Buy, T

Not really similar. Sony, MS, and Nintendo already allow games to be purchased from other retailers, and always have. (See, for example, Game Stop, Best Buy, Target, etc.) Even digital downloads can be purchased from other retailers (i.e., Amazon). Thus, their in-console storefronts are just one of several options that players can use to purchase games. In contrast, the only way to get iPhone apps is through the App Store. No side-loading, third party stores, etc.

criddell 4y ago
Sony gets a cut of every new PS5 game sold through all those third party vendors. Do you think the same setup on the iPhone would satisfy regulators? Roughly, this would mean Epic (for example), could set up an app store but every program they sell would have to be signed by Apple and Apple would probably still get their 15-30% fee. If the regulators are fair, then soon you will be able to write a PS5 or iPhone game and give it to your friends to play.
- wmf 4y ago
  That's similar to what Apple is already proposing; they want 25% from any payment that goes thought a third-party payment processor.
  - gamblor956 4y ago
    No, it's quite different. With the consoles, publishers are paying for the right to use the console maker's commercial IP (i.e., the Playstation or Xbox logo on their marketing materials) and technical IP (access to software APIs for using the hardware functionality). They do not pay royalties to the console makers for each sale. (Source: I work for a video game company and deal with these contracts...) Quite importantly, publishers don't have to pay the console makers if they want to (a) reverse engineer the console firmware so they can make use of the hardware (b) don't use the console maker's IP in their marketing materials (see Sega v. Accord, still good law), and (c) sell through retailers other than the console storefront. However, consoles are now complex enough that reverse engineering would take longer than the commercial life of the console, so it's cheaper and quicker to just pay the console maker the platform fee. With Apple, you aren't allowed to use their commercial IP for marketing your app, period, but you can use the APIs without paying for inhouse apps. However, there are no alternative marketplaces for apps; even in-house apps must go through the AppStore.
    - criddell 4y ago
      Is it as easy for a developer to release PS5 software as it is to release iOS software?
      - gamblor956 4y ago
        That's not relevant to this discussion, because the choice is (a) recreate everything yourself from scratch vs (b) pay monopolistic rates because there are no alternatives. But on that note, a common refrain of iOS developers is what a PITA it is to make apps for iOS given the inferior quality of Apple devtools. Meanwhile, developers generally praise the ease of programming for the PS5.
        criddell 4y ago
        Of course it's relevant because this discussion is about removing app store restrictions from consumer devices. You're saying there are lots of places for developers to sell PS5 software but that's irrelevant if you still need Sony's blessing and have to pay Sony some type of fee. From a distribution perspective, PS5 developers are not better off than iOS developers. There's no way, AFAIK, for a developer to release a title on either platform without jumping through hoops.
        gamblor956 4y ago
        No, you don't need Sony's blessing, unless you want to use Sony's software and marketing IP. Unlike Apple, you can reverse engineer the PS5 hardware if you want, and in fact, that is the whole reason that the console market is structured the way it is. See Sega v. Accolade for more information, but in a nutshell, the console maker can't prevent unlicensed games from running on the hardware. However, they don't have to make it easy to run unlicensed games, and they can make devkits and other IP contingent upon legal agreements that forbid using those tools/docs to develop solutions that don't require a license. (This means that the publisher would need to acquire commercial units to go the reverse engineering route.)
EMIRELADERO 4y ago
From the perspective of a game developer that distinction is irrelevant. They still need the final blessing of Sony/Nintendo/MS in order for their games to run on end user's consoles.
theshrike79 4y ago
Yes, but you can't get a devkit for a console without Sony/MS/Nintendo approval. No devkit, no game. Dunno if they still gatekeep the physical products. Apple takes the $99 developer license and that's it. You get full access to all tools and the App Store. Releasing a new version doesn't cost you anything extra. I wouldn't even know how to go about creating an Xbox or PS game. Who do I contact, where do I pay and how much? What rules do you have to follow to get your indie game on the Playstation Store or XBox Store?
- gamblor956 4y ago
  What part of "reverse engineer" do you not understand? The point of paying the platform fee is that you can make games for the console with the assistance of the console maker. If you don't want to pay for the convenience, you can spend time and money reverse engineering an OS that will run your game(s). Also, the Apple fee isn't just $99. It's $99 plus 30% of every transaction through the app. Forever. The console platform fee is a (non-linearly) scaled fee based on physical units shipped and wholesale price (between 5% and 30%, with the % getting larger at smaller wholesale prices), and does not apply to sales through the console storefront (MS and Sony waive the platform fee and take their earnings on the delta between the wholesale price set by the publisher and the retail price set by the store). Who do I contact, where do I pay and how much? What rules do you have to follow to get your indie game on the Playstation Store or XBox Store? Both Sony and MS have published this information on their websites for over a decade, and promoted indie games for over a decade, so I don't think I need to assume that comment was made in good faith. But since you're too lazy to do a 1-second google search, here are the results for you (in both cases, literally the first result: https://www.xbox.com/en-US/developers/id https://www.xbox.com/en-US/developers/id, https://partners.playstation.net/ https://partners.playstation.net/)
  - theshrike79 4y ago
    I took a quick look at the Playstation partners page. They require the following: * Official company registration document, such as a Certificate of Incorporation. * Latest Annual Return / Financial Statement. * Copy of your entry on a commercial register (or equivalent) within your country or region. * Passport (sole traders only). * Your static IP address in IPv4 format * Your private domain email address (public domains such as Gmail, Hotmail, etc. aren't accepted). Your email address must include your name. * Your product pitch Basically they can just decide they don't like your pitch and not allow you in. Same for the Xbox store. You send an "application" and they may or may not accept it. At least Xbox doesn't want your product pitch beforehand. There is a "very modest one-time cost" though, no idea what's their idea of modest. I'm really looking forward to seeing this EU ruling to extend to consoles as well.

criddell 4y ago

Sony gets a cut of every new PS5 game sold through all those third party vendors. Do you think the same setup on the iPhone would satisfy regulators? Roughly, this would mean Epic (for example), could set up an app store but every program they sell would have to be signed by Apple and Apple would probably still get their 15-30% fee. If the regulators are fair, then soon you will be able to write a PS5 or iPhone game and give it to your friends to play.

wmf 4y ago
That's similar to what Apple is already proposing; they want 25% from any payment that goes thought a third-party payment processor.
- gamblor956 4y ago
  No, it's quite different. With the consoles, publishers are paying for the right to use the console maker's commercial IP (i.e., the Playstation or Xbox logo on their marketing materials) and technical IP (access to software APIs for using the hardware functionality). They do not pay royalties to the console makers for each sale. (Source: I work for a video game company and deal with these contracts...) Quite importantly, publishers don't have to pay the console makers if they want to (a) reverse engineer the console firmware so they can make use of the hardware (b) don't use the console maker's IP in their marketing materials (see Sega v. Accord, still good law), and (c) sell through retailers other than the console storefront. However, consoles are now complex enough that reverse engineering would take longer than the commercial life of the console, so it's cheaper and quicker to just pay the console maker the platform fee. With Apple, you aren't allowed to use their commercial IP for marketing your app, period, but you can use the APIs without paying for inhouse apps. However, there are no alternative marketplaces for apps; even in-house apps must go through the AppStore.
  - criddell 4y ago
    Is it as easy for a developer to release PS5 software as it is to release iOS software?
    - gamblor956 4y ago
      That's not relevant to this discussion, because the choice is (a) recreate everything yourself from scratch vs (b) pay monopolistic rates because there are no alternatives. But on that note, a common refrain of iOS developers is what a PITA it is to make apps for iOS given the inferior quality of Apple devtools. Meanwhile, developers generally praise the ease of programming for the PS5.
      - criddell 4y ago
        Of course it's relevant because this discussion is about removing app store restrictions from consumer devices. You're saying there are lots of places for developers to sell PS5 software but that's irrelevant if you still need Sony's blessing and have to pay Sony some type of fee. From a distribution perspective, PS5 developers are not better off than iOS developers. There's no way, AFAIK, for a developer to release a title on either platform without jumping through hoops.
        gamblor956 4y ago
        No, you don't need Sony's blessing, unless you want to use Sony's software and marketing IP. Unlike Apple, you can reverse engineer the PS5 hardware if you want, and in fact, that is the whole reason that the console market is structured the way it is. See Sega v. Accolade for more information, but in a nutshell, the console maker can't prevent unlicensed games from running on the hardware. However, they don't have to make it easy to run unlicensed games, and they can make devkits and other IP contingent upon legal agreements that forbid using those tools/docs to develop solutions that don't require a license. (This means that the publisher would need to acquire commercial units to go the reverse engineering route.)

EMIRELADERO 4y ago

From the perspective of a game developer that distinction is irrelevant. They still need the final blessing of Sony/Nintendo/MS in order for their games to run on end user's consoles.

theshrike79 4y ago

Yes, but you can't get a devkit for a console without Sony/MS/Nintendo approval. No devkit, no game. Dunno if they still gatekeep the physical products. Apple takes the $99 developer license and that's it. You get full access to all tools and the App Store. Releasing a new version doesn't cost you anything extra. I wouldn't even know how to go about creating an Xbox or PS game. Who do I contact, where do I pay and how much? What rules do you have to follow to get your indie game on the Playstation Store or XBox Store?

gamblor956 4y ago
What part of "reverse engineer" do you not understand? The point of paying the platform fee is that you can make games for the console with the assistance of the console maker. If you don't want to pay for the convenience, you can spend time and money reverse engineering an OS that will run your game(s). Also, the Apple fee isn't just $99. It's $99 plus 30% of every transaction through the app. Forever. The console platform fee is a (non-linearly) scaled fee based on physical units shipped and wholesale price (between 5% and 30%, with the % getting larger at smaller wholesale prices), and does not apply to sales through the console storefront (MS and Sony waive the platform fee and take their earnings on the delta between the wholesale price set by the publisher and the retail price set by the store). Who do I contact, where do I pay and how much? What rules do you have to follow to get your indie game on the Playstation Store or XBox Store? Both Sony and MS have published this information on their websites for over a decade, and promoted indie games for over a decade, so I don't think I need to assume that comment was made in good faith. But since you're too lazy to do a 1-second google search, here are the results for you (in both cases, literally the first result: https://www.xbox.com/en-US/developers/id https://www.xbox.com/en-US/developers/id, https://partners.playstation.net/ https://partners.playstation.net/)
- theshrike79 4y ago
  I took a quick look at the Playstation partners page. They require the following: * Official company registration document, such as a Certificate of Incorporation. * Latest Annual Return / Financial Statement. * Copy of your entry on a commercial register (or equivalent) within your country or region. * Passport (sole traders only). * Your static IP address in IPv4 format * Your private domain email address (public domains such as Gmail, Hotmail, etc. aren't accepted). Your email address must include your name. * Your product pitch Basically they can just decide they don't like your pitch and not allow you in. Same for the Xbox store. You send an "application" and they may or may not accept it. At least Xbox doesn't want your product pitch beforehand. There is a "very modest one-time cost" though, no idea what's their idea of modest. I'm really looking forward to seeing this EU ruling to extend to consoles as well.