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Electric vehicles (EVs) performed worse than gas-powered models in the study. EVs had 240 complaints per 100 vehicles on average, plug-in hybrid vehicles had 23

by causi 4y ago

Electric vehicles (EVs) performed worse than gas-powered models in the study. EVs had 240 complaints per 100 vehicles on average, plug-in hybrid vehicles had 239, and gas-powered cars averaged 175. This never fails to baffle me. An ICE vehicle has a hundred times as many moving parts as a BeV. Just how much lower is the BeV production quality to give them more problems?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
atwood22 4y ago
While ICE are more complicated, they’ve been around longer. The QA process for ICE vehicles is probably better established. As more data is collected on common BeV issues, more defects will be able to be caught by the factory.
hijinks 4y ago
i believe it given 2 neighbors own teslas. One neighbor has had his car in the shop longer then he's owned it. The other is on his 5th warranty call. Yes I'm sure they are outliers but with all new tech people that are early adopters will pay the price.
- mikepurvis 4y ago
  I've seen assertions that it's basically always been like this, but until recently the Musk RDF has helped maintain extremely high reported-satisfaction numbers, despite problems that would never be tolerated on any other vehicle, much less other vehicles in that price point. But it's definitely changing as they try to go mass market. Some rich cat buying a Model S as their third or fourth vehicle has very different expectations/needs than a middle class family getting a Model 3 to be their only car and a daily driver. I have a few friends/neighbours interested in going electric who have recognized this and explicitly chosen to go with the offerings from traditional manufacturers over Tesla— the Kia Soul, Polestar, and in one case a Taycan. Maybe there isn't folksy stuff like plaid mode, farting seats, and biohazard protection, but that long-standing design experience does seem lead to more solid basics like safe, functional interiors, doors and windows that work, and no surprise OTA updates that move around important features in the glass cockpit.
kube-system 4y ago
The issue with these types of surveys is that they don't differentiate between complaints of different severities (or validities). EVs sold in the US tend to have a lot of infotainment features, and as the article mentions: > The most common complaint? Trouble connecting to Apple Carplay or Android Auto. They are equating the number of complaints with "car quality" but really what they are directly measuring is the number of times an owner complains.
danboarder 4y ago
The caveat pointed out in the next paragraph might help explain the numbers: "Those numbers are complicated by the fact that Tesla vehicles weren’t counted in the study. Fully 75% of the EVs sold in the U.S. last quarter were Tesla products." The anecdotal experience I've observed among friends is that Tesla owners are happy with the Supercharger network and better software, while other electric makers still are figuring it out, lots of buggy software, slow charging, etc.
- HWR_14 4y ago
  Tesla owners tend to be happier with the supercharger network and the software, but less happy about the build quality and the car physically falling apart at 8,000 miles. They're also less happy about paying five figures for a software product it's looking like most won't get to use before they sell their car. And the software doesn't transfer.
  - frumper 4y ago
    I am happy with the supercharger network and software. My car didn't fall apart at 8,000 miles and the build quality is good. I did have one minor issue with a window that stopped going up and down smoothly and a Tesla tech came to my house and fixed it with an easy to book appointment. I didn't buy FSD, but I would be unhappy if I did because I don't understand the appeal of pre-paying for something that isn't here yet.
    - HWR_14 4y ago
      You seem to have gotten a good Tesla. Maybe they got better or worse over the years. But the ones I've seen seem to have what I would term serious cosmetic and fit/finish wear for such young cars. For me, the 17" touchscreen is a dealbreaker. So I know I'm not their target market. I have no desire to make my car a computer.
mywittyname 4y ago
ICE vehicles have 100 years of improvement and refinement behind them. A significant number of ICE power trains in current vehicles have direct lineages going back to the 90s and total production numbers in the 100s of millions. The limiting factor in the durability of an ICE is maintenance. Friction will eventually wear an engine beyond operating tolerances. But proper maintenance can keep an ICE going for a very long time. 100 years is totally possible so long as wear components are properly greased and rubbers are replaced every 10 or so years.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- calvinmorrison 4y ago
  GM's ecotech is built on iterative improvements of Triumph Slant-4 engine which showed up in 1968.
  - mywittyname 4y ago
    Right, but claims like that are harder to substantiate because they often rely on circumstantial information, like shares bore centers or ancillary components, which could be the result of company policy and not indicative of direct lineage. Whereas, tracing the lineage of a Nissan VQ, GM L-series, or VAG EA motor back to the 90s is very easy. Choosing 90s was basically a CYA for a "citation needed" claim.
    - calvinmorrison 4y ago
      Slant -> Saab H -> Saab B -> Ecotec. Granted it's a bit of a stretch from B -> Ecotech, but not too far.
krnlpnc 4y ago
Consider the number of revisions to each design, as well as the number of years experience in designing and manufacturing both. Compared to ICE, EV designs and their manufacturing and supporting processes are new. Plus some EV makes are playing games with requiring in house repairs, which incentivizes (in the near term) getting cars out the door and fixing them later
FredPret 4y ago
We human beings have a universe of complexity in us and we last up to a century. Gradual evolutionary improvements can accomplish miracles.

by causi 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

atwood22 4y ago

While ICE are more complicated, they’ve been around longer. The QA process for ICE vehicles is probably better established. As more data is collected on common BeV issues, more defects will be able to be caught by the factory.

hijinks 4y ago

i believe it given 2 neighbors own teslas. One neighbor has had his car in the shop longer then he's owned it. The other is on his 5th warranty call. Yes I'm sure they are outliers but with all new tech people that are early adopters will pay the price.

mikepurvis 4y ago
I've seen assertions that it's basically always been like this, but until recently the Musk RDF has helped maintain extremely high reported-satisfaction numbers, despite problems that would never be tolerated on any other vehicle, much less other vehicles in that price point. But it's definitely changing as they try to go mass market. Some rich cat buying a Model S as their third or fourth vehicle has very different expectations/needs than a middle class family getting a Model 3 to be their only car and a daily driver. I have a few friends/neighbours interested in going electric who have recognized this and explicitly chosen to go with the offerings from traditional manufacturers over Tesla— the Kia Soul, Polestar, and in one case a Taycan. Maybe there isn't folksy stuff like plaid mode, farting seats, and biohazard protection, but that long-standing design experience does seem lead to more solid basics like safe, functional interiors, doors and windows that work, and no surprise OTA updates that move around important features in the glass cockpit.

kube-system 4y ago

The issue with these types of surveys is that they don't differentiate between complaints of different severities (or validities). EVs sold in the US tend to have a lot of infotainment features, and as the article mentions: > The most common complaint? Trouble connecting to Apple Carplay or Android Auto. They are equating the number of complaints with "car quality" but really what they are directly measuring is the number of times an owner complains.

danboarder 4y ago

The caveat pointed out in the next paragraph might help explain the numbers: "Those numbers are complicated by the fact that Tesla vehicles weren’t counted in the study. Fully 75% of the EVs sold in the U.S. last quarter were Tesla products." The anecdotal experience I've observed among friends is that Tesla owners are happy with the Supercharger network and better software, while other electric makers still are figuring it out, lots of buggy software, slow charging, etc.

HWR_14 4y ago
Tesla owners tend to be happier with the supercharger network and the software, but less happy about the build quality and the car physically falling apart at 8,000 miles. They're also less happy about paying five figures for a software product it's looking like most won't get to use before they sell their car. And the software doesn't transfer.
- frumper 4y ago
  I am happy with the supercharger network and software. My car didn't fall apart at 8,000 miles and the build quality is good. I did have one minor issue with a window that stopped going up and down smoothly and a Tesla tech came to my house and fixed it with an easy to book appointment. I didn't buy FSD, but I would be unhappy if I did because I don't understand the appeal of pre-paying for something that isn't here yet.
  - HWR_14 4y ago
    You seem to have gotten a good Tesla. Maybe they got better or worse over the years. But the ones I've seen seem to have what I would term serious cosmetic and fit/finish wear for such young cars. For me, the 17" touchscreen is a dealbreaker. So I know I'm not their target market. I have no desire to make my car a computer.

mywittyname 4y ago

ICE vehicles have 100 years of improvement and refinement behind them. A significant number of ICE power trains in current vehicles have direct lineages going back to the 90s and total production numbers in the 100s of millions. The limiting factor in the durability of an ICE is maintenance. Friction will eventually wear an engine beyond operating tolerances. But proper maintenance can keep an ICE going for a very long time. 100 years is totally possible so long as wear components are properly greased and rubbers are replaced every 10 or so years.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
calvinmorrison 4y ago
GM's ecotech is built on iterative improvements of Triumph Slant-4 engine which showed up in 1968.
- mywittyname 4y ago
  Right, but claims like that are harder to substantiate because they often rely on circumstantial information, like shares bore centers or ancillary components, which could be the result of company policy and not indicative of direct lineage. Whereas, tracing the lineage of a Nissan VQ, GM L-series, or VAG EA motor back to the 90s is very easy. Choosing 90s was basically a CYA for a "citation needed" claim.
  - calvinmorrison 4y ago
    Slant -> Saab H -> Saab B -> Ecotec. Granted it's a bit of a stretch from B -> Ecotech, but not too far.

krnlpnc 4y ago

Consider the number of revisions to each design, as well as the number of years experience in designing and manufacturing both. Compared to ICE, EV designs and their manufacturing and supporting processes are new. Plus some EV makes are playing games with requiring in house repairs, which incentivizes (in the near term) getting cars out the door and fixing them later

FredPret 4y ago

We human beings have a universe of complexity in us and we last up to a century. Gradual evolutionary improvements can accomplish miracles.