11 ms·

If iPhones had different app stores with 15% fees, then consumers would decide. I think the real issue here is consumers are gona get hyper confused and it won

by kinnth 4y ago

If iPhones had different app stores with 15% fees, then consumers would decide. I think the real issue here is consumers are gona get hyper confused and it wont be a better experience for anyone. Every single app creator out there will now want their own "app store" and it's going to be a mess. 30% fee initially to capture that market was what our company factored in and grew exponentially with. A 15% fee is nothing if the market is fragmented.

warning26 4y ago
> Every single app creator out there will now want their own "app store" and it's going to be a mess. This is such an oft-repeated argument, yet overlooks that Android already allows sideloading and alternative app stores. If everyone-creating-their-own-app-store hasn't happened on Android, why would iOS be different?
- Karunamon 4y ago
  Full devils advocate here, but the argument I've always heard is that the play store is a lot less arbitrary and restrictive than the App Store, so there's less reason to want to go outside of it. Apple locks out so many useful kinds of software that there actually may be enough momentum for real alternate app stores to proliferate.
  - reaperducer 4y ago
    Apple locks out so many useful kinds of software For someone who doesn't have a personal Android phone, what useful software is out there that I can get on an iPhone? Related: What mass-market software is out there that isn't available on the iPhone? I don't mean *nix tools and niche game emulators. Things that would make many people actually care about alt stores?
    - GlitchMr 4y ago
      - Web browsers with ad-blocking and plug-ins (Apple currently requires all web browsers to use system Webkit with very limited APIs). - Game cloud streaming services (xCloud, Stadia, GeForce Now). - Unofficial clients for websites such as YouTube that add features that official client doesn't have. - Tools to disable advertisements in applications. - Programs licensed under GPL as Apple App Store bans those.
      - dwaite 4y ago
        > Unofficial clients for websites such as YouTube that add features that official client doesn't have. I'm sure Google can send a cease-and-desist to all sorts of other stores instead of just Apple. > Tools to disable advertisements in applications. This would be breaking the sandbox model of the system, I don't think the regulation requires dismantling system security > Programs licensed under GPL as Apple App Store bans those. No such rule. VLC on App Store is the first example that comes to mind. There are also GPLv2 components (such as WebKit) shipping in iOS itself. The FSF has said there are (IMHO bureaucratic) issues with GPL on an App Store, specifically that e.g. Apple takes on certain responsibilities, rather than the developer. For that reason, it's possible a contributor may shoot down publication, which IIRC caused VLC to have to rewrite certain components before launch.
        GlitchMr 4y ago
        > I'm sure Google can send a cease-and-desist to all sorts of other stores instead of just Apple. Google may dislike those applications and refuse to host them on Google Play, but they aren't doing anything illegal, so they cannot do anything about programs like https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.schabi.newpipe/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.schabi.newpipe/ on other stores. > This would be breaking the sandbox model of the system, I don't think the regulation requires dismantling system security I don't think it is breaking the sandbox, it could be implemented using NEAppProxyProvider, however this particular API is not available for App Store applications. > Programs licensed under GPL as Apple App Store bans those. iPhone version of VLC is licensed under MPL2 specifically for that reason. WebKit is LGPL2.1.
      - 4y ago
    - depressedpanda 4y ago
      > For someone who doesn't have a personal Android phone, what useful software is out there that I can get on an iPhone? A web browser that isn't a hamstrung reskin of Safari, and that can run uBlock Origin.
      - threeseed 4y ago
        You do understand that uBlock Origin has private, profit-generating relationships with advertisers. And you want them to have full access to every URL that you visit ? Rather than use AdGuard or any other ad-blocker that can't go and sell your data to third parties for money.
        summerisle 4y ago
        That's uBlock you were thinking about, which is owned by AdBlock. I'm 98.9% certain that Raymond Gorhill's project which I can build from source and install is not doing that.
        account42 4y ago
        And Gorhill / uBlock Origin doesn't even maintain the block lists (but does ship with a default selection).
        concinds 4y ago
        1) Completely false for uBlock Origin; zero relationship 2) It's fully open-source so the above is verifiable 3) AdGuard and every single other (proprietary) adblocker for Mac and iOS includes content blockers, but also includes web extensions that request access to "all web page contents", including credit card numbers you type in, allegedly for the purposes of custom element blocking etc. (not open source, we can't check). Try installing it and see. Apple still allows web extensions that have complete access to all webpage contents (which is necessary for many legit extensions), they just block specific WebExtensions APIs that uBlock Origin requires. Literally zero benefit to privacy whatsoever, yet everyone buys the BS.
        nottorp 4y ago
    - Karunamon 4y ago
      In addition to everything the others mentioned already, anything that's not a web browser that might at some point show NSFW content. Applications like Discord and Tumblr been forced to make ux-degrading changes to comply with this Victorian-era prudishness. (and before you mention an application you know of that doesn't have this problem, remember that Apple's enforcement and reading of the rules compares unfavorably with nuclear particle decay)
      - nottorp 4y ago
        Yeah, if as a consequence what you can do iOS/Mac OS stops being censored according to US puritan values, that would be a plus.
        nottorp 4y ago
        Haha speaking of Apple stuff being Disney-ified, my phone stopped charging wirelessly. The solution to that is to restart it, but Apple hid that option under 3 layers of menus and I can never find it, so I asked Siri to "turn off this f--ing phone". She said "That's not nice" and did not turn off the phone.
    - Hamuko 4y ago
      Call recorders.
    - tidenly 4y ago
      The Pornhub app
    - nottorp 4y ago
      No uBlock Origin for one.
  - Bud 4y ago
    I have never, in 15 years on iOS, run into a single "kind of software" that Apple has supposedly "locked out" that I actually wanted or needed.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - oblio 4y ago
      Your needs are limited and "anecdote" is not the plural form of "data".
- trollied 4y ago
  Counter argument: The millions of different game launchers on Windows. What a complete and utter mess.
  - orangecat 4y ago
    And it would be better if Microsoft had total control over what you're allowed to run? Give them that power in 1990, and the web never exists outside of a research project.
  - int_19h 4y ago
    Now imagine there's a single game launcher, and that's the built-in Xbox app. Games that aren't approved by Microsoft don't get published. I'll take the current arrangement any day of the week, thank you.
  - Hamuko 4y ago
    You mean like twelve and most of the games with custom launchers are still on Steam?
  - getcrunk 4y ago
    That doesn't apply. You are forced to use the different launchers if you want certain games
  - arvinsim 4y ago
    Millions? Cite them.
  - tidenly 4y ago
    And we would never have all the innovations in the market that Steam has brought to us if windows only allowed game installs through some Microsoft Games Market. Are you saying that would be preferable?
- illuminati1911 4y ago
  Here in China there is like 800 app stores for Android.
  - warning26 4y ago
    Isn't the Play Store blocked in China? Seems like that would be the main reason for the proliferation of alternatives.
- caramelcustard 4y ago
  "...hasn't happened on Android...", except it did but mostly in Asia. Not to mention the manufacturer-exclusive appstores.
- Georgelemental 4y ago
  The Play Store, as a system app, gets special privileges that user-sideloaded appstores don't, like automatic updates.
mike_hearn 4y ago
More likely, some apps will simply bypass the whole app store concept entirely. There are a lot of downsides to requiring every app install be intermediated by a third party, especially for internal or very niche apps where the app store isn't really adding any value because the provider is a trusted/known brand to the customer already (e.g. they may have a negotiated contract). For consumer apps, there doesn't seem to be much appetite to do this on Android at least, though Telegram can be installed outside of app stores. It rolls its own update system and that seems to work fine.
- account42 4y ago
  Unfortunately, the App Stores tend to bundle both the store (i.e. curation and discovery) part and the on device package management part somewhat so apps installed outside the store will need to provide their own update mechanism. There is of course no real reason why there can't be a standard way to provide update channels that can be managed in a central package manager application without also requiring the store part, just so far no incentives for platform holders to separate these two.

by kinnth 4y ago

warning26 4y ago

> Every single app creator out there will now want their own "app store" and it's going to be a mess. This is such an oft-repeated argument, yet overlooks that Android already allows sideloading and alternative app stores. If everyone-creating-their-own-app-store hasn't happened on Android, why would iOS be different?

Karunamon 4y ago
Full devils advocate here, but the argument I've always heard is that the play store is a lot less arbitrary and restrictive than the App Store, so there's less reason to want to go outside of it. Apple locks out so many useful kinds of software that there actually may be enough momentum for real alternate app stores to proliferate.
- reaperducer 4y ago
  Apple locks out so many useful kinds of software For someone who doesn't have a personal Android phone, what useful software is out there that I can get on an iPhone? Related: What mass-market software is out there that isn't available on the iPhone? I don't mean *nix tools and niche game emulators. Things that would make many people actually care about alt stores?
  - GlitchMr 4y ago
    - Web browsers with ad-blocking and plug-ins (Apple currently requires all web browsers to use system Webkit with very limited APIs). - Game cloud streaming services (xCloud, Stadia, GeForce Now). - Unofficial clients for websites such as YouTube that add features that official client doesn't have. - Tools to disable advertisements in applications. - Programs licensed under GPL as Apple App Store bans those.
    - dwaite 4y ago
      > Unofficial clients for websites such as YouTube that add features that official client doesn't have. I'm sure Google can send a cease-and-desist to all sorts of other stores instead of just Apple. > Tools to disable advertisements in applications. This would be breaking the sandbox model of the system, I don't think the regulation requires dismantling system security > Programs licensed under GPL as Apple App Store bans those. No such rule. VLC on App Store is the first example that comes to mind. There are also GPLv2 components (such as WebKit) shipping in iOS itself. The FSF has said there are (IMHO bureaucratic) issues with GPL on an App Store, specifically that e.g. Apple takes on certain responsibilities, rather than the developer. For that reason, it's possible a contributor may shoot down publication, which IIRC caused VLC to have to rewrite certain components before launch.
      - GlitchMr 4y ago
        > I'm sure Google can send a cease-and-desist to all sorts of other stores instead of just Apple. Google may dislike those applications and refuse to host them on Google Play, but they aren't doing anything illegal, so they cannot do anything about programs like https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.schabi.newpipe/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.schabi.newpipe/ on other stores. > This would be breaking the sandbox model of the system, I don't think the regulation requires dismantling system security I don't think it is breaking the sandbox, it could be implemented using NEAppProxyProvider, however this particular API is not available for App Store applications. > Programs licensed under GPL as Apple App Store bans those. iPhone version of VLC is licensed under MPL2 specifically for that reason. WebKit is LGPL2.1.
    - 4y ago
  - depressedpanda 4y ago
    > For someone who doesn't have a personal Android phone, what useful software is out there that I can get on an iPhone? A web browser that isn't a hamstrung reskin of Safari, and that can run uBlock Origin.
    - threeseed 4y ago
      You do understand that uBlock Origin has private, profit-generating relationships with advertisers. And you want them to have full access to every URL that you visit ? Rather than use AdGuard or any other ad-blocker that can't go and sell your data to third parties for money.
      - summerisle 4y ago
        That's uBlock you were thinking about, which is owned by AdBlock. I'm 98.9% certain that Raymond Gorhill's project which I can build from source and install is not doing that.
        account42 4y ago
        And Gorhill / uBlock Origin doesn't even maintain the block lists (but does ship with a default selection).
      - concinds 4y ago
        1) Completely false for uBlock Origin; zero relationship 2) It's fully open-source so the above is verifiable 3) AdGuard and every single other (proprietary) adblocker for Mac and iOS includes content blockers, but also includes web extensions that request access to "all web page contents", including credit card numbers you type in, allegedly for the purposes of custom element blocking etc. (not open source, we can't check). Try installing it and see. Apple still allows web extensions that have complete access to all webpage contents (which is necessary for many legit extensions), they just block specific WebExtensions APIs that uBlock Origin requires. Literally zero benefit to privacy whatsoever, yet everyone buys the BS.
      - nottorp 4y ago
  - Karunamon 4y ago
    In addition to everything the others mentioned already, anything that's not a web browser that might at some point show NSFW content. Applications like Discord and Tumblr been forced to make ux-degrading changes to comply with this Victorian-era prudishness. (and before you mention an application you know of that doesn't have this problem, remember that Apple's enforcement and reading of the rules compares unfavorably with nuclear particle decay)
    - nottorp 4y ago
      Yeah, if as a consequence what you can do iOS/Mac OS stops being censored according to US puritan values, that would be a plus.
      - nottorp 4y ago
        Haha speaking of Apple stuff being Disney-ified, my phone stopped charging wirelessly. The solution to that is to restart it, but Apple hid that option under 3 layers of menus and I can never find it, so I asked Siri to "turn off this f--ing phone". She said "That's not nice" and did not turn off the phone.
  - Hamuko 4y ago
    Call recorders.
  - tidenly 4y ago
    The Pornhub app
  - nottorp 4y ago
    No uBlock Origin for one.
- Bud 4y ago
  I have never, in 15 years on iOS, run into a single "kind of software" that Apple has supposedly "locked out" that I actually wanted or needed.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - oblio 4y ago
    Your needs are limited and "anecdote" is not the plural form of "data".
trollied 4y ago
Counter argument: The millions of different game launchers on Windows. What a complete and utter mess.
- orangecat 4y ago
  And it would be better if Microsoft had total control over what you're allowed to run? Give them that power in 1990, and the web never exists outside of a research project.
- int_19h 4y ago
  Now imagine there's a single game launcher, and that's the built-in Xbox app. Games that aren't approved by Microsoft don't get published. I'll take the current arrangement any day of the week, thank you.
- Hamuko 4y ago
  You mean like twelve and most of the games with custom launchers are still on Steam?
- getcrunk 4y ago
  That doesn't apply. You are forced to use the different launchers if you want certain games
- arvinsim 4y ago
  Millions? Cite them.
- tidenly 4y ago
  And we would never have all the innovations in the market that Steam has brought to us if windows only allowed game installs through some Microsoft Games Market. Are you saying that would be preferable?
illuminati1911 4y ago
Here in China there is like 800 app stores for Android.
- warning26 4y ago
  Isn't the Play Store blocked in China? Seems like that would be the main reason for the proliferation of alternatives.
caramelcustard 4y ago
"...hasn't happened on Android...", except it did but mostly in Asia. Not to mention the manufacturer-exclusive appstores.
Georgelemental 4y ago
The Play Store, as a system app, gets special privileges that user-sideloaded appstores don't, like automatic updates.

mike_hearn 4y ago

More likely, some apps will simply bypass the whole app store concept entirely. There are a lot of downsides to requiring every app install be intermediated by a third party, especially for internal or very niche apps where the app store isn't really adding any value because the provider is a trusted/known brand to the customer already (e.g. they may have a negotiated contract). For consumer apps, there doesn't seem to be much appetite to do this on Android at least, though Telegram can be installed outside of app stores. It rolls its own update system and that seems to work fine.

account42 4y ago
Unfortunately, the App Stores tend to bundle both the store (i.e. curation and discovery) part and the on device package management part somewhat so apps installed outside the store will need to provide their own update mechanism. There is of course no real reason why there can't be a standard way to provide update channels that can be managed in a central package manager application without also requiring the store part, just so far no incentives for platform holders to separate these two.