4 ms·

Most of the public face of Dutch farming is a show intended to mislead the public into having sympathy, as if the farmers were struggling and at risk of losing

by z9znz 4y ago

Most of the public face of Dutch farming is a show intended to mislead the public into having sympathy, as if the farmers were struggling and at risk of losing their livelihoods. This is what every industry does in the face of regulations. The farmers represented by these organizations are not poor. They are profiting handsomely while creating significant pollution - a cost borne by the local public and the global public. The Netherlands is a small country by land size, and it has a vast number of intensive farms. The same intensive farming practices which are passable in other places are create high concentrations of pollution here. And as the NL as part of the EU and has agreed to abide by various pollution limits, it must make changes to curb its pollution. Simply saying, "But this is my way of life!" is not valid if that way of life comes at an increasing cost to everyone around you. Just because something has been going on for some time does not mean it should be allowed to continue. As for the protests, they are not protests - they are extortion or terrorism. As such, they should be met with severe criminal penalties. Allowing a group of wealthy bullies to take over a country is not acceptable in modern times. We are hopefully not just a bunch of apes with clubs forming clans and dominating those who "threaten our way of life".

ratsmack 4y ago
I'm sure your views on this subject would be completely different if you were a farmer.
- consp 4y ago
  The point probably is that you can replace <farmer> with any well of group trying to get sympathy.
- z9znz 4y ago
  No, probably not. I would just know that I was making a profit at the expense of everyone else. To go out in public and cry crocodile tears about my livelihood would be disingenuous.
  - ratsmack 4y ago
    >To go out in public and cry crocodile tears about my livelihood would be disingenuous Should we feel the same way about people in IT, programming and other computer related industries then they are laid off for economic reasons? I find it odd that there are many industries that produce far more damaging pollution, including the tech industries, which don't even produce the necessities for life like farming does, but nobody blinks any eye.
    - Mil0dV 4y ago
      Should we condone IT people being laid off taking down websites, ddossing their ex-epmployers and random other loosely related sites/services just because they're pissed off?
      - ratsmack 4y ago
        Yeah, it's okay when we do it because it affects us.
    - z9znz 4y ago
      These are not the same at all, at least generally speaking. IT workers are usually not causing direct environmental impact on those around them. And if you assessed the percentage of environmental cost per individual, you would likely find that IT workers would be way, way below industrial farmers. There are certainly many industries that create significant pollution. But pragmatically, we care when it's a small few people creating a high concentration of said pollution. That is the case for Dutch farmers. The services of the farmers is appreciated. Their methods are not. They don't want to change their methods (or reduce their output) for any reason, environmental or otherwise. That is the problem. Other industries change (usually after throwing fits like the farmers are doing now).
    - sebazzz 4y ago
      > Should we feel the same way about people in IT, programming and other computer related industries then they are laid off for economic reasons? No but we should feel the same way about IT people building tracking software for the advertising industry. That is a more apt analogy probably.
- sweetheart 4y ago
  What do you think that would change about the soundness of the argument they outlined?
- ksec 4y ago
  In the past 5 - 6 years the views on HN has generally shifted that making any amount of profits would be viewed as evil.
  - ratsmack 4y ago
    But making huge profit in the tech sector is rejoiced, as seen in the likes of Apple, Amazon, Google.... and the list goes on. But farmers are seen as leeches for wanting to be paid for their labor.
    - z9znz 4y ago
      Show me where in the news or otherwise that the objection against farmers is that we don't want to pay for their labor. You know this is not the case. I'm happy to pay farmers for their work, so long as their work doesn't add pollution beyond what is legal to the environment.
  - cute_boi 4y ago
    Making profit is not evil but, making profit at the cost of everyone is always evil. I am glad that people perceptions are being changed. We all should strive to meet sustainable goals.
  - z9znz 4y ago
    Making profits for doing something useful and not overtly harmful is commended. If you provide a needed service, and you do it without harming others, then everyone is happy. But there are many, many, many examples where the harm is very clear. This is one of those cases. The only reason 53% (supposedly) of the Dutch population support the farmers is because they don't know the full story. If I come into your neighborhood and do something which gives me a big profit but screws you and your neighbors, should my profit-seeking be commended? Or should we evaluate the real cost?
202206241203 4y ago
Interesting, I have read the same about German farmers recently. Maybe I should become a farmer, I do like money and I am quite good at complaining...
- rasz 4y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pDTiFkXgEE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pDTiFkXgEE
guywithahat 4y ago
I feel like you don't need to "mislead" the public into having sympathy for you when the government bans ~30% of farming and then sends tanks in to stop protesters If anything people who don't have sympathy for the farmers have been mislead. These people are having their lives destroyed for political reasons, it's like if we said with the exception of Google, Apple, and Microsoft all tech companies had to reduce their server power usage by 30% and couldn't expand in the future. This law is horrible and oppressive
- consp 4y ago
  > sends tanks in to stop protesters Not a single tank was used. This is pathetic framing. The "tanks" were send in by the protesters: aka farming equipment, the same category used to get rid of them in the end (earth moving equipment and truck towing), which you frame as tanks (which closes the circle).

by z9znz 4y ago

ratsmack 4y ago

I'm sure your views on this subject would be completely different if you were a farmer.

consp 4y ago
The point probably is that you can replace <farmer> with any well of group trying to get sympathy.
z9znz 4y ago
No, probably not. I would just know that I was making a profit at the expense of everyone else. To go out in public and cry crocodile tears about my livelihood would be disingenuous.
- ratsmack 4y ago
  >To go out in public and cry crocodile tears about my livelihood would be disingenuous Should we feel the same way about people in IT, programming and other computer related industries then they are laid off for economic reasons? I find it odd that there are many industries that produce far more damaging pollution, including the tech industries, which don't even produce the necessities for life like farming does, but nobody blinks any eye.
  - Mil0dV 4y ago
    Should we condone IT people being laid off taking down websites, ddossing their ex-epmployers and random other loosely related sites/services just because they're pissed off?
    - ratsmack 4y ago
      Yeah, it's okay when we do it because it affects us.
  - z9znz 4y ago
    These are not the same at all, at least generally speaking. IT workers are usually not causing direct environmental impact on those around them. And if you assessed the percentage of environmental cost per individual, you would likely find that IT workers would be way, way below industrial farmers. There are certainly many industries that create significant pollution. But pragmatically, we care when it's a small few people creating a high concentration of said pollution. That is the case for Dutch farmers. The services of the farmers is appreciated. Their methods are not. They don't want to change their methods (or reduce their output) for any reason, environmental or otherwise. That is the problem. Other industries change (usually after throwing fits like the farmers are doing now).
  - sebazzz 4y ago
    > Should we feel the same way about people in IT, programming and other computer related industries then they are laid off for economic reasons? No but we should feel the same way about IT people building tracking software for the advertising industry. That is a more apt analogy probably.
sweetheart 4y ago
What do you think that would change about the soundness of the argument they outlined?
ksec 4y ago
In the past 5 - 6 years the views on HN has generally shifted that making any amount of profits would be viewed as evil.
- ratsmack 4y ago
  But making huge profit in the tech sector is rejoiced, as seen in the likes of Apple, Amazon, Google.... and the list goes on. But farmers are seen as leeches for wanting to be paid for their labor.
  - z9znz 4y ago
    Show me where in the news or otherwise that the objection against farmers is that we don't want to pay for their labor. You know this is not the case. I'm happy to pay farmers for their work, so long as their work doesn't add pollution beyond what is legal to the environment.
- cute_boi 4y ago
  Making profit is not evil but, making profit at the cost of everyone is always evil. I am glad that people perceptions are being changed. We all should strive to meet sustainable goals.
- z9znz 4y ago
  Making profits for doing something useful and not overtly harmful is commended. If you provide a needed service, and you do it without harming others, then everyone is happy. But there are many, many, many examples where the harm is very clear. This is one of those cases. The only reason 53% (supposedly) of the Dutch population support the farmers is because they don't know the full story. If I come into your neighborhood and do something which gives me a big profit but screws you and your neighbors, should my profit-seeking be commended? Or should we evaluate the real cost?

202206241203 4y ago

Interesting, I have read the same about German farmers recently. Maybe I should become a farmer, I do like money and I am quite good at complaining...

rasz 4y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pDTiFkXgEE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pDTiFkXgEE

guywithahat 4y ago

I feel like you don't need to "mislead" the public into having sympathy for you when the government bans ~30% of farming and then sends tanks in to stop protesters If anything people who don't have sympathy for the farmers have been mislead. These people are having their lives destroyed for political reasons, it's like if we said with the exception of Google, Apple, and Microsoft all tech companies had to reduce their server power usage by 30% and couldn't expand in the future. This law is horrible and oppressive

consp 4y ago
> sends tanks in to stop protesters Not a single tank was used. This is pathetic framing. The "tanks" were send in by the protesters: aka farming equipment, the same category used to get rid of them in the end (earth moving equipment and truck towing), which you frame as tanks (which closes the circle).