9 ms·

I really hope Sony and Nintendo are classified as gatekeepers as well because this > Allow users to install apps from third-party app stores and sideload direc

I really hope Sony and Nintendo are classified as gatekeepers as well because this > Allow users to install apps from third-party app stores and sideload directly from the internet. would be huge for Playstation and Switch owners.

oneoff786 4y ago
It might kill off consoles entirely tbh
- ReptileMan 4y ago
  It won't - without root piracy will still be extremely hard.
  - warning26 4y ago
    I think the biggest change we would likely see is that classic-game-rereleases would evaporate, as it would become trivially easy to install emulators.
    - caramelcustard 4y ago
      It already is on XBox, so no.
      - Jcowell 4y ago
        Disagree. “Trivially easy” must be set in common sense to the average consumer. It must be something that they can do easily without any guides or tutorials. Changing my name on Xbox is trivially easy. This[1] is not. [1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/xbox-apps/devkit-activation https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/xbox-apps/devki...
        caramelcustard 4y ago
        Disagreeing with your disagreement. How "easy" a tech-related task is to accomplish is determined by the users skills and experience, as well as software/hardware usage patterns that they've learned over the years. Official guides/tutorials for enabling/disabling various functions exist for Google Play/AppStore too. Does that mean that one of the easiest ways to acquire apps that have ever existed is...not easy? Because there really isn't much difference between following a "how to login into my Apple/Google account" tutorial and "how to enable an XBox feature".
        Karunamon 4y ago
        If you're expecting the user to follow a tutorial to do some thing, that thing is already a niche of a niche.
        caramelcustard 4y ago
        Never knew that kitchen appliances are "a niche of a niche" with their instruction manuals.
        samatman 4y ago
        I'm 100% confident that if Apple told EU they were complying with the new law, with a system where you either have to run only sideloaded apps or only official App Store apps at any given time, but could reboot from one to the other, the EU would say "very funny, here's your fine".
        judge2020 4y ago
        There is a developer mode[0] so maybe that's their angle; right now nothing changes for regular apps but I can see a future API where banks, competitive games, etc. check to make sure you're not running any sideloaded code (not that that's a big problem, as iOS 15 is still unjailbroken due to the extreme advancements in the OS security model). 0: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode/enabling-developer-mode-on-a-device https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode/enabling-dev...
  - oneoff786 4y ago
    Not piracy, but the loss of revenue from selling the games themselves.
- izacus 4y ago
  Not even close.
  - oneoff786 4y ago
    If they don’t get a cut of third party game revenue then making a console is a huge, risky investment for what? The opportunity to sell first party games to a smaller audience?
- wccrawford 4y ago
  It would certainly fundamentally change their business model. XBox already seems to be changing, though, with the majority of their games also on PC and even supporting streaming to mobile devices, without a console at all. I could see Playstation moving towards that model as well, focusing on the games rather than the hardware.
- VyseofArcadia 4y ago
  I sure hope not. As I age, the value prop of consoles is, I don't have to mess with settings or diagnose problems or sacrifice goats to the "did this update break something" gods. It just works. I can just play games.
  - silon42 4y ago
    This was true when consoles were offline only and games on physical media... I'm not investing into newer ones unless they can do the same.
    - VyseofArcadia 4y ago
      I agree with the sentiment, but in my experience that's just not true. [1] The PS4 and PS5 are nice and pain free. The Switch even more so, because the games will run right off the cartridge without needing updates. They have available updates, but the version shipped on the cartridge is 100% playable. [1] With the exception of the XBox because Microsoft can't get their shit together.
      - oblio 4y ago
        > The PS4 and PS5 are nice and pain free. Are they, though? Turn them off for 6 months, 1 year, then come back to them. Wanted to play Fifa with a friend that had a... PS4. OS update, game updates, the whole shebang. It wasn't much better than Windows + Steam.
        VyseofArcadia 4y ago
        Your Windows + Steam experience sounds a lot smoother than mine if all you have to complain about is updates. I experience breaking updates all the time on PC. "Wait, why is this game crashing now?" "Wait, why have all of my settings been reset?" "Wait, why has the framerate tanked since the last update?" "Wait, why isn't my controller working anymore?" All of these happen to me on Steam games. It's infuriating. I'll happily take the console experience of updates that don't break things.
ajaimk 4y ago
While I want this to be true, consoles only exist because of game revenue. Not sure a $2000 PS5 is as appealing
- Hamuko 4y ago
  The PS5 hardware is already profitable (well, the more expensive one at least). Well, it was before the inflation ramped up at least. But still, even if sideloading was possible on the PS5, PlayStation Store revenue would not dip down to nothingness. https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/ps5-turning-profit-sony/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/ps5-turning-profit-sony...
  - threeseed 4y ago
    But Playstation Store revenue would be decimated by piracy. This isn't conjecture we know for a fact it will happen as we see on PCs.
    - wtetzner 4y ago
      > This isn't conjecture we know for a fact it will happen as we see on PCs. Steam seems to be pretty profitable…
- izacus 4y ago
  All new consoles are sold with profit or breaking even so I don't know where this assertion even comes from. Not to mention that they happily double dip by taxing for games, charging online service subscriptions and getting extra revenue via online stores.
  - ksec 4y ago
    >Double Dip. So now earning profits on hardware and charging for software or services are double dipping? I really hate the Apple used this term and it is now spreading everywhere.
    - 4y ago
kmeisthax 4y ago
So far everyone complaining about app lockouts have been laser-focused on phones, because they're general-purpose and thus easier to legally justify sideloading on. Nobody wants to talk about game consoles - to open them up would almost certainly require revisiting DMCA 1201[0] and removing the prohibition on circumvention tools. The US Copyright Office wouldn't entertain extending the current "mobile devices"[1] jailbreaking exception to consoles, and Epic Games had to do all sorts of mental gymnastics to explain why Apple was a monopolist but Nintendo, Microsoft, and Sony weren't. [0] Or your local equivalent. And yes, you do have a local equivalent, unless you are living in Iran, Afghanistan, or North Korea. [1] Phones and tablet computers.
- EMIRELADERO 4y ago
  > to open them up would almost certainly require revisiting DMCA 1201[0] and removing the prohibition on circumvention tools. That law only forbids bypassing protection measures exclusively related to protecting access to a specific copyrighted work. Getting root on consoles isn't that.
  - kmeisthax 4y ago
    That's section A of DMCA 1201 that you're thinking of. There's also section B that forbids circumvention tools and that's way broader than the first part. The law distinguishes between breaking DRM, which can be OK in certain circumstances, and telling people how to break DRM, which is always illegal if you can allege some path from your tool to piracy. And, believe me, it is actually pretty difficult to give someone a homebrew installation vector that does not also give you the ability to just pirate games at all. While there have been some homebrew scenes that deliberately added barriers to piracy[0], there's also been cases where piracy was the only hack you could even pull off[1]. Remember: if you have the ability to install your own code, then you can also install someone else's. Whether or not a jailbreak or homebrew installer would be considered a DMCA 1201 circumvention tool is something a judge would have to decide, but it's close enough to the line that I wouldn't personally touch exploit development. [0] Off the top of my head: before A9LH/B9S, 3DS homebrew launchers could only run a custom executable format... though this was moreso for compatibility with the GPU DMA exploit they were using first and antipiracy was just a bonus. The Wii scene was also extremely opposed to piracy thanks to Team Twiizers pushing hard against it. [1] Also off the top of my head: the whole mess with 360 drivechip hacks that sucked all the talent away from actual homebrew enablement.
gamblor956 4y ago
Not really similar. Sony, MS, and Nintendo already allow games to be purchased from other retailers, and always have. (See, for example, Game Stop, Best Buy, Target, etc.) Even digital downloads can be purchased from other retailers (i.e., Amazon). Thus, their in-console storefronts are just one of several options that players can use to purchase games. In contrast, the only way to get iPhone apps is through the App Store. No side-loading, third party stores, etc.
- criddell 4y ago
  Sony gets a cut of every new PS5 game sold through all those third party vendors. Do you think the same setup on the iPhone would satisfy regulators? Roughly, this would mean Epic (for example), could set up an app store but every program they sell would have to be signed by Apple and Apple would probably still get their 15-30% fee. If the regulators are fair, then soon you will be able to write a PS5 or iPhone game and give it to your friends to play.
  - wmf 4y ago
    That's similar to what Apple is already proposing; they want 25% from any payment that goes thought a third-party payment processor.
    - gamblor956 4y ago
      No, it's quite different. With the consoles, publishers are paying for the right to use the console maker's commercial IP (i.e., the Playstation or Xbox logo on their marketing materials) and technical IP (access to software APIs for using the hardware functionality). They do not pay royalties to the console makers for each sale. (Source: I work for a video game company and deal with these contracts...) Quite importantly, publishers don't have to pay the console makers if they want to (a) reverse engineer the console firmware so they can make use of the hardware (b) don't use the console maker's IP in their marketing materials (see Sega v. Accord, still good law), and (c) sell through retailers other than the console storefront. However, consoles are now complex enough that reverse engineering would take longer than the commercial life of the console, so it's cheaper and quicker to just pay the console maker the platform fee. With Apple, you aren't allowed to use their commercial IP for marketing your app, period, but you can use the APIs without paying for inhouse apps. However, there are no alternative marketplaces for apps; even in-house apps must go through the AppStore.
mr_toad 4y ago
VLC on my PlayStation would be awesome.

oneoff786 4y ago

It might kill off consoles entirely tbh

ReptileMan 4y ago
It won't - without root piracy will still be extremely hard.
- warning26 4y ago
  I think the biggest change we would likely see is that classic-game-rereleases would evaporate, as it would become trivially easy to install emulators.
  - caramelcustard 4y ago
    It already is on XBox, so no.
    - Jcowell 4y ago
      Disagree. “Trivially easy” must be set in common sense to the average consumer. It must be something that they can do easily without any guides or tutorials. Changing my name on Xbox is trivially easy. This[1] is not. [1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/xbox-apps/devkit-activation https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/xbox-apps/devki...
      - caramelcustard 4y ago
        Disagreeing with your disagreement. How "easy" a tech-related task is to accomplish is determined by the users skills and experience, as well as software/hardware usage patterns that they've learned over the years. Official guides/tutorials for enabling/disabling various functions exist for Google Play/AppStore too. Does that mean that one of the easiest ways to acquire apps that have ever existed is...not easy? Because there really isn't much difference between following a "how to login into my Apple/Google account" tutorial and "how to enable an XBox feature".
        Karunamon 4y ago
        If you're expecting the user to follow a tutorial to do some thing, that thing is already a niche of a niche.
        caramelcustard 4y ago
        Never knew that kitchen appliances are "a niche of a niche" with their instruction manuals.
        samatman 4y ago
        I'm 100% confident that if Apple told EU they were complying with the new law, with a system where you either have to run only sideloaded apps or only official App Store apps at any given time, but could reboot from one to the other, the EU would say "very funny, here's your fine".
        judge2020 4y ago
        There is a developer mode[0] so maybe that's their angle; right now nothing changes for regular apps but I can see a future API where banks, competitive games, etc. check to make sure you're not running any sideloaded code (not that that's a big problem, as iOS 15 is still unjailbroken due to the extreme advancements in the OS security model). 0: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode/enabling-developer-mode-on-a-device https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode/enabling-dev...
- oneoff786 4y ago
  Not piracy, but the loss of revenue from selling the games themselves.
izacus 4y ago
Not even close.
- oneoff786 4y ago
  If they don’t get a cut of third party game revenue then making a console is a huge, risky investment for what? The opportunity to sell first party games to a smaller audience?
wccrawford 4y ago
It would certainly fundamentally change their business model. XBox already seems to be changing, though, with the majority of their games also on PC and even supporting streaming to mobile devices, without a console at all. I could see Playstation moving towards that model as well, focusing on the games rather than the hardware.
VyseofArcadia 4y ago
I sure hope not. As I age, the value prop of consoles is, I don't have to mess with settings or diagnose problems or sacrifice goats to the "did this update break something" gods. It just works. I can just play games.
- silon42 4y ago
  This was true when consoles were offline only and games on physical media... I'm not investing into newer ones unless they can do the same.
  - VyseofArcadia 4y ago
    I agree with the sentiment, but in my experience that's just not true. [1] The PS4 and PS5 are nice and pain free. The Switch even more so, because the games will run right off the cartridge without needing updates. They have available updates, but the version shipped on the cartridge is 100% playable. [1] With the exception of the XBox because Microsoft can't get their shit together.
    - oblio 4y ago
      > The PS4 and PS5 are nice and pain free. Are they, though? Turn them off for 6 months, 1 year, then come back to them. Wanted to play Fifa with a friend that had a... PS4. OS update, game updates, the whole shebang. It wasn't much better than Windows + Steam.
      - VyseofArcadia 4y ago
        Your Windows + Steam experience sounds a lot smoother than mine if all you have to complain about is updates. I experience breaking updates all the time on PC. "Wait, why is this game crashing now?" "Wait, why have all of my settings been reset?" "Wait, why has the framerate tanked since the last update?" "Wait, why isn't my controller working anymore?" All of these happen to me on Steam games. It's infuriating. I'll happily take the console experience of updates that don't break things.

ajaimk 4y ago

While I want this to be true, consoles only exist because of game revenue. Not sure a $2000 PS5 is as appealing

Hamuko 4y ago
The PS5 hardware is already profitable (well, the more expensive one at least). Well, it was before the inflation ramped up at least. But still, even if sideloading was possible on the PS5, PlayStation Store revenue would not dip down to nothingness. https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/ps5-turning-profit-sony/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/ps5-turning-profit-sony...
- threeseed 4y ago
  But Playstation Store revenue would be decimated by piracy. This isn't conjecture we know for a fact it will happen as we see on PCs.
  - wtetzner 4y ago
    > This isn't conjecture we know for a fact it will happen as we see on PCs. Steam seems to be pretty profitable…
izacus 4y ago
All new consoles are sold with profit or breaking even so I don't know where this assertion even comes from. Not to mention that they happily double dip by taxing for games, charging online service subscriptions and getting extra revenue via online stores.
- ksec 4y ago
  >Double Dip. So now earning profits on hardware and charging for software or services are double dipping? I really hate the Apple used this term and it is now spreading everywhere.
  - 4y ago

kmeisthax 4y ago

So far everyone complaining about app lockouts have been laser-focused on phones, because they're general-purpose and thus easier to legally justify sideloading on. Nobody wants to talk about game consoles - to open them up would almost certainly require revisiting DMCA 1201[0] and removing the prohibition on circumvention tools. The US Copyright Office wouldn't entertain extending the current "mobile devices"[1] jailbreaking exception to consoles, and Epic Games had to do all sorts of mental gymnastics to explain why Apple was a monopolist but Nintendo, Microsoft, and Sony weren't. [0] Or your local equivalent. And yes, you do have a local equivalent, unless you are living in Iran, Afghanistan, or North Korea. [1] Phones and tablet computers.

EMIRELADERO 4y ago
> to open them up would almost certainly require revisiting DMCA 1201[0] and removing the prohibition on circumvention tools. That law only forbids bypassing protection measures exclusively related to protecting access to a specific copyrighted work. Getting root on consoles isn't that.
- kmeisthax 4y ago
  That's section A of DMCA 1201 that you're thinking of. There's also section B that forbids circumvention tools and that's way broader than the first part. The law distinguishes between breaking DRM, which can be OK in certain circumstances, and telling people how to break DRM, which is always illegal if you can allege some path from your tool to piracy. And, believe me, it is actually pretty difficult to give someone a homebrew installation vector that does not also give you the ability to just pirate games at all. While there have been some homebrew scenes that deliberately added barriers to piracy[0], there's also been cases where piracy was the only hack you could even pull off[1]. Remember: if you have the ability to install your own code, then you can also install someone else's. Whether or not a jailbreak or homebrew installer would be considered a DMCA 1201 circumvention tool is something a judge would have to decide, but it's close enough to the line that I wouldn't personally touch exploit development. [0] Off the top of my head: before A9LH/B9S, 3DS homebrew launchers could only run a custom executable format... though this was moreso for compatibility with the GPU DMA exploit they were using first and antipiracy was just a bonus. The Wii scene was also extremely opposed to piracy thanks to Team Twiizers pushing hard against it. [1] Also off the top of my head: the whole mess with 360 drivechip hacks that sucked all the talent away from actual homebrew enablement.

gamblor956 4y ago

Not really similar. Sony, MS, and Nintendo already allow games to be purchased from other retailers, and always have. (See, for example, Game Stop, Best Buy, Target, etc.) Even digital downloads can be purchased from other retailers (i.e., Amazon). Thus, their in-console storefronts are just one of several options that players can use to purchase games. In contrast, the only way to get iPhone apps is through the App Store. No side-loading, third party stores, etc.

criddell 4y ago
Sony gets a cut of every new PS5 game sold through all those third party vendors. Do you think the same setup on the iPhone would satisfy regulators? Roughly, this would mean Epic (for example), could set up an app store but every program they sell would have to be signed by Apple and Apple would probably still get their 15-30% fee. If the regulators are fair, then soon you will be able to write a PS5 or iPhone game and give it to your friends to play.
- wmf 4y ago
  That's similar to what Apple is already proposing; they want 25% from any payment that goes thought a third-party payment processor.
  - gamblor956 4y ago
    No, it's quite different. With the consoles, publishers are paying for the right to use the console maker's commercial IP (i.e., the Playstation or Xbox logo on their marketing materials) and technical IP (access to software APIs for using the hardware functionality). They do not pay royalties to the console makers for each sale. (Source: I work for a video game company and deal with these contracts...) Quite importantly, publishers don't have to pay the console makers if they want to (a) reverse engineer the console firmware so they can make use of the hardware (b) don't use the console maker's IP in their marketing materials (see Sega v. Accord, still good law), and (c) sell through retailers other than the console storefront. However, consoles are now complex enough that reverse engineering would take longer than the commercial life of the console, so it's cheaper and quicker to just pay the console maker the platform fee. With Apple, you aren't allowed to use their commercial IP for marketing your app, period, but you can use the APIs without paying for inhouse apps. However, there are no alternative marketplaces for apps; even in-house apps must go through the AppStore.

mr_toad 4y ago

VLC on my PlayStation would be awesome.