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Is it disingenuous to tell kids sticks and stones may break my bones but names can never hurt me? Or, what other people think of you doesn’t matter? As the ar

Is it disingenuous to tell kids sticks and stones may break my bones but names can never hurt me? Or, what other people think of you doesn’t matter? As the article points out it can be damaging at any age. Maybe a better approach is to tell them, yes it can hurt, but here are some ways to process that and work on resilience.

lotsofpulp 4y ago
The purpose of the sticks and stones saying is to prevent disproportionate physical responses to verbal insults. You are justified in needing to use violence to stop someone from attacking you with sticks and stones because those cannot be mentally shrugged off, but it is better to walk away from words being said to you, since you can mentally shrug them off.
- 988747 4y ago
  Which brings me to probably most misunderstood of Jesus teachings: "turning the other cheek". People usually interpret it as a call to pacifism - do not respond to violence with more violence. What people miss is that for Jesus contemporaries being slapped in the face hardly counted as violence (if it happens between two adult men it is really hard to cause any lasting damage this way). Instead, slap in the face would be considered an insult, and the meaning of "turn the other cheek" phrase is pretty similar to "stick and stones" saying - don't unnecessarily escalate from insult to violence.
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  - flubert 4y ago
    Another interesting look at "turn the other cheek": https://web.archive.org/web/20160307005615/http://dharmagates.org/other_cheek.html https://web.archive.org/web/20160307005615/http://dharmagate...
    - 988747 4y ago
      Thanks, that was really interesting read :)
- tut-urut-utut 4y ago
  One has to be careful here. Sometimes physical violence is the only effective answer to stop bullying. People often underestimate how much constant mobbing can hurt. Ignore? It gets worse. Fight back verbally? Usually doesn't work, since verbal harassers are much more versed at insulting and hurting mentally. You just can't be so good as someone who practices insults and mockery day in day out. What choice do you have? Move the battle to the playground where, even if you can't win, you at least may have a chance to cause some harm to the enemy. Kick the bastard with the fist? In most of the cases it works[1]. If the bully is physically weaker, he won't bully your child again. If the bully is stronger, he kicks too, there's a fight, but still, next time bully will think about consequences of insulting again. [1] of course, physical force only in a very limited way. Overuse of physical force to actually injure someone, or use weapons and tools, is of course not a way to go. EDIT: Physical violence doesn't always work. Frequently is not even a good, let alone the best option. But still, there are situations when it can be an adequate response, and this option shouldn't be a priori dismissed.
  - RajT88 4y ago
    My experience has been, there's effective strategies against bullying that work if you have a single bully. Physical violence is one of them, you do some damage to that single bully, and they'll think better of using you as their punching bag. If you have a group of bullies, you're sunk. You can't fight everyone, they are going to maintain their "superiority" via unfair tactics if they can. You beat one of them in a fight, the rest are going to jump in and beat you down to maintain the status quo. Going to administration is the best path. Document your complaints, establish a pattern of behavior. Find sympathetic adults and confide in them. What's funny is, my experience has been that bullying is a phenomenon of smaller school size. Once I got to junior high, my grade school bullies all of a sudden just weren't interested anymore. Bullying in high school was almost unheard of. We had something like 2500 students in my high school. I look at these teen dramas with high school bullies, and those schools look tiny, just a few hundred students. If anyone knows research into this area which explains the correlation, I'd love to read about it.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    Like most clever sayings, there are parameters where it does not apply. But for a children calling each other a mean name on the playground, or acute instances of verbal insult such as words exchange in a bar, the cost benefit analysis of the saying is accurate. Repeated instances of bullying or communal insults and humiliation cross into the abuse realm, and are not addressed by the saying.
inanutshellus 4y ago
> Is it disingenuous to tell kids sticks and stones may break my bones but names can never hurt me? That phrase's famous usage is as a way to portray self-respect and non-violent defense of oneself after being verbally attacked. In that context, it still has value and is not disingenuous to provide to children.
- wahnfrieden 4y ago
  the question for you making that statement is whether children usually understand that to be the point. Or whether there are more effective approaches without harmful misunderstandings
- themitigating 4y ago
  Does it? Only if the other person stops and since they are aware of the phrase would they?
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    It is not about getting people to stop, it is about mitigating the damage. The fact that some bullies seeking a response may eventually stop is incidental.
    - kelseyfrog 4y ago
      How does telling someone that words don't hurt make words not hurt? I can't make knives not hurt simply by saying so.
      - s1artibartfast 4y ago
        If you are not familiar with the mantra, Knives are physical like sticks and stones. "Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words will never hurt me" Harm from knives is physical and objective. Words can only hurt to the degree you care about them. You could call me a nasty name right now, and it would not hurt my feelings because I am not invested in your opinion of me. I have an independent sense of self worth. Understanding that you can change the level that you care about the opinions of others is a basic human skill.
themitigating 4y ago
I agree. If someone is feeling a certain way bascially telling them "you shouldn't care" doesn't make sense. Emotions are powerful and difficult to control, especially for young people
atwood22 4y ago
I think it is disingenuous to tell kids that. Learning to disregard others’ opinions of you is a skill learned with time. The best way to teach that skill is to instill a sense of self worth and high self esteem in kids. Words very obviously do hurt kids, so to tell them that words don’t hurt is to disregard their feelings at best and call them a liar at worst. Understanding the complex web of emotions felt in response to stimuli is a central part of growing up and not something you can shortcut with platitudes.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  The obvious intent is forward moving, not retrospective. Nothing can change the past hurt. However, you can control your future emotions. Sticks and stones is not a full instruction set, but an introduction to the concept.
  - atwood22 4y ago
    If you tell a kid that words shouldn't hurt them, but words do hurt them, then what other conclusion can they come to other than that they're emotionally deficient? Kids trust their parents. If parents say the world works in a certain way, then kids will believe that. Kids can have trouble reconciling things when a their observations disagree with what a trusted parent has told them. It's better to instill high self-esteem in a kid through positive reenforcement. When the kid is called stupid at school, the words don't hurt them because the kid knows they are, in fact, not stupid.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      Like I said, it's not a full instruction set. It is a reminder that self-esteem should not be based on the opinions of others. More clearly needs to be done to instill self-esteem. That doesn't mean it's not a helpful reminder of the concept when one encounters derogatory feedback
      - atwood22 4y ago
        You keep saying "it's a reminder not a full instruction set." But what is the difference between a reminder and an instruction set? You're not responding to the main issue, which is that this "reminder" is incongruous with how the kid feels.
vlovich123 4y ago
It’s a mantra a child can use to express to others and help steel themselves in the face of a verbal assault. Is it actually harmful? I don’t know but it could be harmful to some and helpful to others. I remember a moment when during lunch at elementary school someone retired insulting my mom. My response was to just ignore it because this taunt changed nothing in the world. The moment that sticks for me though is when the adult lunch monitor asked me why I wasn’t defending my mother.
watwut 4y ago
I think it IS disingenuous and also lie. What people tell about you and to you affects your experience and possibilities a lot. The above phrase is told to bullied kids so that they shut up and so that adults don't have to deal with situation. Teaching the kid how to defend from bullies, how to avoid them or addressing bullies themselves is much harder. If the kid is not pickes on but kid complains for wrong reasons, then explaining the situation to the kid is also harder.
wvh 4y ago
There's a large difference between personal offence and genuine threat, and hence in optimal response. Please teach them that difference; we don't seem to be doing a good job at the moment.

lotsofpulp 4y ago

The purpose of the sticks and stones saying is to prevent disproportionate physical responses to verbal insults. You are justified in needing to use violence to stop someone from attacking you with sticks and stones because those cannot be mentally shrugged off, but it is better to walk away from words being said to you, since you can mentally shrug them off.

988747 4y ago
Which brings me to probably most misunderstood of Jesus teachings: "turning the other cheek". People usually interpret it as a call to pacifism - do not respond to violence with more violence. What people miss is that for Jesus contemporaries being slapped in the face hardly counted as violence (if it happens between two adult men it is really hard to cause any lasting damage this way). Instead, slap in the face would be considered an insult, and the meaning of "turn the other cheek" phrase is pretty similar to "stick and stones" saying - don't unnecessarily escalate from insult to violence.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- flubert 4y ago
  Another interesting look at "turn the other cheek": https://web.archive.org/web/20160307005615/http://dharmagates.org/other_cheek.html https://web.archive.org/web/20160307005615/http://dharmagate...
  - 988747 4y ago
    Thanks, that was really interesting read :)
tut-urut-utut 4y ago
One has to be careful here. Sometimes physical violence is the only effective answer to stop bullying. People often underestimate how much constant mobbing can hurt. Ignore? It gets worse. Fight back verbally? Usually doesn't work, since verbal harassers are much more versed at insulting and hurting mentally. You just can't be so good as someone who practices insults and mockery day in day out. What choice do you have? Move the battle to the playground where, even if you can't win, you at least may have a chance to cause some harm to the enemy. Kick the bastard with the fist? In most of the cases it works[1]. If the bully is physically weaker, he won't bully your child again. If the bully is stronger, he kicks too, there's a fight, but still, next time bully will think about consequences of insulting again. [1] of course, physical force only in a very limited way. Overuse of physical force to actually injure someone, or use weapons and tools, is of course not a way to go. EDIT: Physical violence doesn't always work. Frequently is not even a good, let alone the best option. But still, there are situations when it can be an adequate response, and this option shouldn't be a priori dismissed.
- RajT88 4y ago
  My experience has been, there's effective strategies against bullying that work if you have a single bully. Physical violence is one of them, you do some damage to that single bully, and they'll think better of using you as their punching bag. If you have a group of bullies, you're sunk. You can't fight everyone, they are going to maintain their "superiority" via unfair tactics if they can. You beat one of them in a fight, the rest are going to jump in and beat you down to maintain the status quo. Going to administration is the best path. Document your complaints, establish a pattern of behavior. Find sympathetic adults and confide in them. What's funny is, my experience has been that bullying is a phenomenon of smaller school size. Once I got to junior high, my grade school bullies all of a sudden just weren't interested anymore. Bullying in high school was almost unheard of. We had something like 2500 students in my high school. I look at these teen dramas with high school bullies, and those schools look tiny, just a few hundred students. If anyone knows research into this area which explains the correlation, I'd love to read about it.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  Like most clever sayings, there are parameters where it does not apply. But for a children calling each other a mean name on the playground, or acute instances of verbal insult such as words exchange in a bar, the cost benefit analysis of the saying is accurate. Repeated instances of bullying or communal insults and humiliation cross into the abuse realm, and are not addressed by the saying.

inanutshellus 4y ago

> Is it disingenuous to tell kids sticks and stones may break my bones but names can never hurt me? That phrase's famous usage is as a way to portray self-respect and non-violent defense of oneself after being verbally attacked. In that context, it still has value and is not disingenuous to provide to children.

wahnfrieden 4y ago
the question for you making that statement is whether children usually understand that to be the point. Or whether there are more effective approaches without harmful misunderstandings
themitigating 4y ago
Does it? Only if the other person stops and since they are aware of the phrase would they?
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  It is not about getting people to stop, it is about mitigating the damage. The fact that some bullies seeking a response may eventually stop is incidental.
  - kelseyfrog 4y ago
    How does telling someone that words don't hurt make words not hurt? I can't make knives not hurt simply by saying so.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      If you are not familiar with the mantra, Knives are physical like sticks and stones. "Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words will never hurt me" Harm from knives is physical and objective. Words can only hurt to the degree you care about them. You could call me a nasty name right now, and it would not hurt my feelings because I am not invested in your opinion of me. I have an independent sense of self worth. Understanding that you can change the level that you care about the opinions of others is a basic human skill.

themitigating 4y ago

I agree. If someone is feeling a certain way bascially telling them "you shouldn't care" doesn't make sense. Emotions are powerful and difficult to control, especially for young people

atwood22 4y ago

I think it is disingenuous to tell kids that. Learning to disregard others’ opinions of you is a skill learned with time. The best way to teach that skill is to instill a sense of self worth and high self esteem in kids. Words very obviously do hurt kids, so to tell them that words don’t hurt is to disregard their feelings at best and call them a liar at worst. Understanding the complex web of emotions felt in response to stimuli is a central part of growing up and not something you can shortcut with platitudes.

s1artibartfast 4y ago
The obvious intent is forward moving, not retrospective. Nothing can change the past hurt. However, you can control your future emotions. Sticks and stones is not a full instruction set, but an introduction to the concept.
- atwood22 4y ago
  If you tell a kid that words shouldn't hurt them, but words do hurt them, then what other conclusion can they come to other than that they're emotionally deficient? Kids trust their parents. If parents say the world works in a certain way, then kids will believe that. Kids can have trouble reconciling things when a their observations disagree with what a trusted parent has told them. It's better to instill high self-esteem in a kid through positive reenforcement. When the kid is called stupid at school, the words don't hurt them because the kid knows they are, in fact, not stupid.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    Like I said, it's not a full instruction set. It is a reminder that self-esteem should not be based on the opinions of others. More clearly needs to be done to instill self-esteem. That doesn't mean it's not a helpful reminder of the concept when one encounters derogatory feedback
    - atwood22 4y ago
      You keep saying "it's a reminder not a full instruction set." But what is the difference between a reminder and an instruction set? You're not responding to the main issue, which is that this "reminder" is incongruous with how the kid feels.

vlovich123 4y ago

It’s a mantra a child can use to express to others and help steel themselves in the face of a verbal assault. Is it actually harmful? I don’t know but it could be harmful to some and helpful to others. I remember a moment when during lunch at elementary school someone retired insulting my mom. My response was to just ignore it because this taunt changed nothing in the world. The moment that sticks for me though is when the adult lunch monitor asked me why I wasn’t defending my mother.

watwut 4y ago

I think it IS disingenuous and also lie. What people tell about you and to you affects your experience and possibilities a lot. The above phrase is told to bullied kids so that they shut up and so that adults don't have to deal with situation. Teaching the kid how to defend from bullies, how to avoid them or addressing bullies themselves is much harder. If the kid is not pickes on but kid complains for wrong reasons, then explaining the situation to the kid is also harder.

wvh 4y ago

There's a large difference between personal offence and genuine threat, and hence in optimal response. Please teach them that difference; we don't seem to be doing a good job at the moment.