I think claiming HN has less overt moderation and still manages to be civilized is a little like pointing to a low-crime part of town without much of a police p

I think claiming HN has less overt moderation and still manages to be civilized is a little like pointing to a low-crime part of town without much of a police presence, and highlighting it as evidence that cops are unnecessary. In both cases, it's not that policing isn't necessary; it's that—thanks to a less crime-prone community and/or earlier, heavier policing—it's become unnecessary. You don't see a lot of overt moderation on places like HN or Ars Technica, but that's because you learn pretty quickly that ugliness isn't tolerated. (And for what it's worth, a lot of the trolls getting downvoted/told off by dang here do claim that they're being silenced by ideological thought police.) "Censorship", as you chose to put it, might not "solve" hate, but it absolutely establishes a culture where hate is less welcome, and I think most of us here would much prefer that culture to some anarchic cesspool like 4chan. I've been on the internet for over half my life, and I have never once in that timeframe seen an unmoderated online community that didn't revolve into the internet version of a failed state. You said, accurately, that a crucial factor in any online community is the users you cultivate; I'm not sure how such a cultivation process could work without some level of moderation. If you can show me an example of a completely unmoderated community that matches HN in terms of civility and intelligent discourse, I would be very curious to see it. As far as I can tell, such a thing has never existed and never will.