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Wolfgang's channel had an interesting take on it recently: "Tiling Window Managers suck. Here's why" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n_rl9jWUMo https://www.you

Wolfgang's channel had an interesting take on it recently: "Tiling Window Managers suck. Here's why" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n_rl9jWUMo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n_rl9jWUMo

mikenew 4y ago
He makes some great points and I can relate to most of them, but my god do I love my tiling window manager. There is nothing on earth that would convince me to go back to stacking. IMO, the key thing about tiling window managers is that if you configure it correctly, you always know where everything is, and you're only ever one or two keystrokes (or mouse clicks) away. For example, on my setup, workspace 8 is always Firefox. If I open workspace 8 and Firefox hasn't been launched yet it immediately opens. Workspace 7 is my meassaging app, 6 is discord, 1 is a terminal, and so on. Windows are never hidden behind each other so you never go hunting for anything. There's also a lot of little customization things that make it feel really nice. Like I can hit a hotkey to size a youtube video to a pixel-perfect, borderless 720p window with other windows filling space around it. Or a global hotkey to hide notifications for the next hour. I have a "get focused" hotkey that will lock the screen and require an admin password if I open the browser. TWMs are definitely not for everybody. But for me it removes a ton of frustration that I get with stacking window managers, and it lets me customize my own experience in ways that I find super valuable.
- indigodaddy 4y ago
  I like what you describe here...! I haven't been in Linux-land for awhile as I got a new Windows 11 laptop recentlyish and haven't put Linux on it yet, and my work laptop is Windows.. But for my new upcoming job they should be sending me a Macbook. Does the latest OS X have a workspace concept? If not is there an free application that can implement workspaces/desktops on OS X?
  - uberduper 4y ago
    OSX has a fantastic workspace implementation.
    - indigodaddy 4y ago
      Ah cool found the documentation thanks.. https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/work-in-multiple-spaces-mh14112/mac https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/work-in-multiple-sp... I never really utilized it at all last time I used a macbook for work.. :/
    - darthrupert 4y ago
      Then I guess I must be a horrible user since I cannot get them to work for me. Whereas I got the tiling paradigm immediately. I think the worst offence is how Mac OS conflates full screen with workspace, and how you cannot (I think?) assign keybindings for instantly (=0ms animation) moving focus and windows to workspace x.
  - mikenew 4y ago
    I haven't used macOS as my main OS in a long time, but I think your best bet is https://github.com/ianyh/Amethyst https://github.com/ianyh/Amethyst Also I highly recommend disabling the "Automatically rearrange Spaces based on most recent use" in settings. That always felt like it was just randomly sorting my workspaces so that I had to fling them around until I found what I needed.
- uberduper 4y ago
  I want to like TWMs but they all seem tailored to running single app workspaces on low res screens. I would absolutely love a TWM that let me place/size windows like Spectacle or Rectangle but also _push_ other windows out of the way to maintain a grid and avoid overlapping. Open terminal, use keybind to place in upper right 1/3rd the screen width and 1/2 height. Open slack, hit same keybind, terminal gets pushed left (or down if there's already something to the left). Open browser, hit center 1/3rd 100% height keybind. Pushes terminal left. Focus slack, hit top right keybind again to expand window to 2/3rd width. Pushes browser down to center 1/3rd bottom 1/2. etc.
  - mikenew 4y ago
    What you're describing is what tiling window managers do (or at least very close to what you're describing). Neither Spectacle or Rectangle are actually tiling window managers; they're just window snapping tools. I have never tried this (haven't used macos as my main OS in years), but I've heard it works well, and should give you the tiling window experience: https://github.com/ianyh/Amethyst https://github.com/ianyh/Amethyst
    - kergonath 4y ago
      It works very well indeed. No problem either tiling or stacking when I want one or the other.
    - uberduper 4y ago
      I'm a linux desktop user. Today I use pygrid with a couple tweaks to get the Spectacle keybinds. I've used this with gnome and kde and it's fine. I would really like to use it with a wm that supports per-screen workspaces/virtual desktops. As far as I've been able to find, ONLY tiling window managers do this. I've also used sway quite a bit. And i3... and even pop's tiling.. They are nothing, at all, like I've described. I've gone so far as to setup sway to float all windows and created swaymsg keybinds to place/size windows like spectacle but discovered that sway has a bug with focus window up/down/left/right keybinds and floating windows.
- candiddevmike 4y ago
  What distro/TWM do you use? Do you configure all of this via dotfiles? Do you use multiple monitors?
  - mikenew 4y ago
    Arch Linux with Sway, yes and yes. Right now I have a main monitor in front of me and a monitor rotated 90 degrees to landscape on my left for messaging apps or documentation. I can't really speak to the other tiling window managers because I've been using i3 and Sway for years now and never felt any need to switch (i3 and Sway work pretty much the same; Sway is just the more modern Wayland implementation), but browsing r/unixporn is a good place to check out the different setups, and people often post their dotfiles if you want a starting point.
- dinvlad 4y ago
  This sounds great, actually! I'm personally a fan of maximized windows for most of everything, and would very much like to use something that allows me to pin certain windows to certain workspaces like you describe. Not sure if Windows 11 has something similar (at least, not with native workspaces - they only "remember" certain windows and not others..)
gatonegro 4y ago
I switched to a tiling WM about a year ago, and I went through most of the things he mentions in that video, but I'd say it was likely due to the fact that I had been using regular desktop environments for about 25 years, so everything was completely new to me. These days I don't need to fiddle with my WM configuration, and I have all the other things (launcher, media controls, keyboard layouts) set up nicely too. I can just boot my system and start using it. It works exactly the way I want it to, and if there's something that doesn't work quite right I have direct access to the source code of the WM. A while back I had trouble with a volume widget that didn't work properly when using PipeWire, so I just went and fixed it myself. I rarely have to venture out into Windowsland, but when I do I feel incredibly clumsy and slow, which is quite frankly weird after such a short amount of time using a tiling WM. They're definitely not for everybody, but for me it has been a fascinating experience.
- NoGravitas 4y ago
  "Smart Zones" in Windows Power Toys is not exactly a tiling window manager (it doesn't automatically tile, and you have to manually create and change layouts). But it does reduce the amount of pain when coming from a tiling window manager to Windows.
michaelmrose 4y ago
Wolfgang learns just enough about a topic to make poorly reasoned statements about topics he doesn't understand that use some of the correct words. He says for instance that he quit using tiling window managers because among other things because of the grossly overstated time required to configure screen locker and volume keys and such. However since he seems to have already sunk that 30 whole minutes there is no savings involved. He explicates reasonably well the argument for a keyboard centric workflow then casually dismisses it by asserting without argument that users endure the great burden of learning scads if keyboard shortcuts for what he asserts is no benefit after he himself articulates the benefit. How hard is it to understand shortcuts per the name are quick ways to perform an operation? He mentions web browsers as if they were some great counter argument to keyboard shortcuts. Yes it's ok if you both pick up the mouse to click something and use shortcuts too. He says that GUI apps work poorly with tiling window managers because they will be forced to a suboptimal size. Nobody is making you open 7 apps on your 12" screen. Nothing about tiling window managers keeps you from giving a particular app up to an entire monitor. This doesn't require writing rules for every app or manually resizing or indeed anything else but switching workspaces. If you want 1 window alone on one workspace and 3 on the other do you know what complex operation is required? You open 1 window switch to the second workspace and then open the other 3. He claims that you won't be able to employ keyboard shortcuts without resolving conflicts as this was a great unsolved problem. Most shortcuts aren't global and application specific shortcuts just can't conflict by nature. The traditional method for binding non conflicting shortcuts for actually global things like your wm is to bind windows key + foo to global things whereas applications get control shift alt + everything else. It's so weird to watch him thinking he's being clever and knowledgeable when he's completely talking out of his rear. If you like me watched the whole thing you know less than you started out knowing if you took him seriously.
- _y5hn 4y ago
  It's about preference. With tiling, there needs to be an itch to scratch. Ie. I like tabbing windows on 2 displays, mostly. Others like switching virtual displays all the time. If you don't have any such itch, tiling may seem pointless.
- leephillips 4y ago
jraph 4y ago
The title is catchy but the content is well balanced. It actually describe perfectly well my point of view. Tiling already works well out of the box with regular window managers, without the pain that can come with tiling window managers. Regular stacked window managers actually come with most useful features of tiling managers like tiling windows on the side or the corner, with the keyboard or the mouse (and since I have a bigger screen I use them more and more like this), while still allowing stacking when it's useful, or using the mouse when it's useful. I wish KWin allowed to remove shadows when windows take the full screen but this idea has been rejected.

Wolfgang's channel had an interesting take on it recently: "Tiling Window Managers suck. Here's why" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n_rl9jWUMo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n_rl9jWUMo

mikenew 4y ago

He makes some great points and I can relate to most of them, but my god do I love my tiling window manager. There is nothing on earth that would convince me to go back to stacking. IMO, the key thing about tiling window managers is that if you configure it correctly, you always know where everything is, and you're only ever one or two keystrokes (or mouse clicks) away. For example, on my setup, workspace 8 is always Firefox. If I open workspace 8 and Firefox hasn't been launched yet it immediately opens. Workspace 7 is my meassaging app, 6 is discord, 1 is a terminal, and so on. Windows are never hidden behind each other so you never go hunting for anything. There's also a lot of little customization things that make it feel really nice. Like I can hit a hotkey to size a youtube video to a pixel-perfect, borderless 720p window with other windows filling space around it. Or a global hotkey to hide notifications for the next hour. I have a "get focused" hotkey that will lock the screen and require an admin password if I open the browser. TWMs are definitely not for everybody. But for me it removes a ton of frustration that I get with stacking window managers, and it lets me customize my own experience in ways that I find super valuable.

indigodaddy 4y ago
I like what you describe here...! I haven't been in Linux-land for awhile as I got a new Windows 11 laptop recentlyish and haven't put Linux on it yet, and my work laptop is Windows.. But for my new upcoming job they should be sending me a Macbook. Does the latest OS X have a workspace concept? If not is there an free application that can implement workspaces/desktops on OS X?
- uberduper 4y ago
  OSX has a fantastic workspace implementation.
  - indigodaddy 4y ago
    Ah cool found the documentation thanks.. https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/work-in-multiple-spaces-mh14112/mac https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/work-in-multiple-sp... I never really utilized it at all last time I used a macbook for work.. :/
  - darthrupert 4y ago
    Then I guess I must be a horrible user since I cannot get them to work for me. Whereas I got the tiling paradigm immediately. I think the worst offence is how Mac OS conflates full screen with workspace, and how you cannot (I think?) assign keybindings for instantly (=0ms animation) moving focus and windows to workspace x.
- mikenew 4y ago
  I haven't used macOS as my main OS in a long time, but I think your best bet is https://github.com/ianyh/Amethyst https://github.com/ianyh/Amethyst Also I highly recommend disabling the "Automatically rearrange Spaces based on most recent use" in settings. That always felt like it was just randomly sorting my workspaces so that I had to fling them around until I found what I needed.
uberduper 4y ago
I want to like TWMs but they all seem tailored to running single app workspaces on low res screens. I would absolutely love a TWM that let me place/size windows like Spectacle or Rectangle but also _push_ other windows out of the way to maintain a grid and avoid overlapping. Open terminal, use keybind to place in upper right 1/3rd the screen width and 1/2 height. Open slack, hit same keybind, terminal gets pushed left (or down if there's already something to the left). Open browser, hit center 1/3rd 100% height keybind. Pushes terminal left. Focus slack, hit top right keybind again to expand window to 2/3rd width. Pushes browser down to center 1/3rd bottom 1/2. etc.
- mikenew 4y ago
  What you're describing is what tiling window managers do (or at least very close to what you're describing). Neither Spectacle or Rectangle are actually tiling window managers; they're just window snapping tools. I have never tried this (haven't used macos as my main OS in years), but I've heard it works well, and should give you the tiling window experience: https://github.com/ianyh/Amethyst https://github.com/ianyh/Amethyst
  - kergonath 4y ago
    It works very well indeed. No problem either tiling or stacking when I want one or the other.
  - uberduper 4y ago
    I'm a linux desktop user. Today I use pygrid with a couple tweaks to get the Spectacle keybinds. I've used this with gnome and kde and it's fine. I would really like to use it with a wm that supports per-screen workspaces/virtual desktops. As far as I've been able to find, ONLY tiling window managers do this. I've also used sway quite a bit. And i3... and even pop's tiling.. They are nothing, at all, like I've described. I've gone so far as to setup sway to float all windows and created swaymsg keybinds to place/size windows like spectacle but discovered that sway has a bug with focus window up/down/left/right keybinds and floating windows.
candiddevmike 4y ago
What distro/TWM do you use? Do you configure all of this via dotfiles? Do you use multiple monitors?
- mikenew 4y ago
  Arch Linux with Sway, yes and yes. Right now I have a main monitor in front of me and a monitor rotated 90 degrees to landscape on my left for messaging apps or documentation. I can't really speak to the other tiling window managers because I've been using i3 and Sway for years now and never felt any need to switch (i3 and Sway work pretty much the same; Sway is just the more modern Wayland implementation), but browsing r/unixporn is a good place to check out the different setups, and people often post their dotfiles if you want a starting point.
dinvlad 4y ago
This sounds great, actually! I'm personally a fan of maximized windows for most of everything, and would very much like to use something that allows me to pin certain windows to certain workspaces like you describe. Not sure if Windows 11 has something similar (at least, not with native workspaces - they only "remember" certain windows and not others..)

gatonegro 4y ago

I switched to a tiling WM about a year ago, and I went through most of the things he mentions in that video, but I'd say it was likely due to the fact that I had been using regular desktop environments for about 25 years, so everything was completely new to me. These days I don't need to fiddle with my WM configuration, and I have all the other things (launcher, media controls, keyboard layouts) set up nicely too. I can just boot my system and start using it. It works exactly the way I want it to, and if there's something that doesn't work quite right I have direct access to the source code of the WM. A while back I had trouble with a volume widget that didn't work properly when using PipeWire, so I just went and fixed it myself. I rarely have to venture out into Windowsland, but when I do I feel incredibly clumsy and slow, which is quite frankly weird after such a short amount of time using a tiling WM. They're definitely not for everybody, but for me it has been a fascinating experience.

NoGravitas 4y ago
"Smart Zones" in Windows Power Toys is not exactly a tiling window manager (it doesn't automatically tile, and you have to manually create and change layouts). But it does reduce the amount of pain when coming from a tiling window manager to Windows.

michaelmrose 4y ago

Wolfgang learns just enough about a topic to make poorly reasoned statements about topics he doesn't understand that use some of the correct words. He says for instance that he quit using tiling window managers because among other things because of the grossly overstated time required to configure screen locker and volume keys and such. However since he seems to have already sunk that 30 whole minutes there is no savings involved. He explicates reasonably well the argument for a keyboard centric workflow then casually dismisses it by asserting without argument that users endure the great burden of learning scads if keyboard shortcuts for what he asserts is no benefit after he himself articulates the benefit. How hard is it to understand shortcuts per the name are quick ways to perform an operation? He mentions web browsers as if they were some great counter argument to keyboard shortcuts. Yes it's ok if you both pick up the mouse to click something and use shortcuts too. He says that GUI apps work poorly with tiling window managers because they will be forced to a suboptimal size. Nobody is making you open 7 apps on your 12" screen. Nothing about tiling window managers keeps you from giving a particular app up to an entire monitor. This doesn't require writing rules for every app or manually resizing or indeed anything else but switching workspaces. If you want 1 window alone on one workspace and 3 on the other do you know what complex operation is required? You open 1 window switch to the second workspace and then open the other 3. He claims that you won't be able to employ keyboard shortcuts without resolving conflicts as this was a great unsolved problem. Most shortcuts aren't global and application specific shortcuts just can't conflict by nature. The traditional method for binding non conflicting shortcuts for actually global things like your wm is to bind windows key + foo to global things whereas applications get control shift alt + everything else. It's so weird to watch him thinking he's being clever and knowledgeable when he's completely talking out of his rear. If you like me watched the whole thing you know less than you started out knowing if you took him seriously.

_y5hn 4y ago
It's about preference. With tiling, there needs to be an itch to scratch. Ie. I like tabbing windows on 2 displays, mostly. Others like switching virtual displays all the time. If you don't have any such itch, tiling may seem pointless.
leephillips 4y ago

jraph 4y ago

The title is catchy but the content is well balanced. It actually describe perfectly well my point of view. Tiling already works well out of the box with regular window managers, without the pain that can come with tiling window managers. Regular stacked window managers actually come with most useful features of tiling managers like tiling windows on the side or the corner, with the keyboard or the mouse (and since I have a bigger screen I use them more and more like this), while still allowing stacking when it's useful, or using the mouse when it's useful. I wish KWin allowed to remove shadows when windows take the full screen but this idea has been rejected.