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> We deal with data so you don’t have to. I can’t find it now, but a while ago there was a post about map/data startups that basically boiled down to: Don’t.

> We deal with data so you don’t have to. I can’t find it now, but a while ago there was a post about map/data startups that basically boiled down to: Don’t. The argument went like this: People who want geospatial visualisations almost always want something custom. Companies selling geospatial products believe that they can churn the data into “data layers” that serve “use cases” that mostly address this. It’s always more work to work with a company to get the last mile of the custom use case… than it would have been to just do it yourself. There aren’t that many paying customers. … I don’t know how true that is in reality, and the article was more nuanced than my dumb summary, but… really? A subscription product to annotate maps, which has built in “data layers” so “you don’t have to”? Sounds very familiar.

tony_cannistra 4y ago
I think you're thinking of this Joe Morrison substack post: https://joemorrison.substack.com/p/nobody-wants-your-fancy-algorithm https://joemorrison.substack.com/p/nobody-wants-your-fancy-a... hn post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31074177 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31074177
aguacaterojo 4y ago
I build a product in this space and our traction is pretty good because we capture the data as well & follow customers with lots of infrastructure way down that very long last mile. We put in as much work into a handful of last mile solutions (that do scale quite well) as we do to our generic more generic Felt like base layer - admittedly Felt is much more polished than ours, but yeah we don't have a lot of traction on that self-service lightweight easy to use online GIS model.
makeitdouble 4y ago
Yes. In my own experience, either the product needed very little map features, and it didn't warrant paying in full just for that (I remember even live Google Maps integration being dismissed as "too costly" and moving to pre-rendered optimized maps). Either we needed a lot more maps, and having full access to the underlying data made more sense to limit computational overhead and better adapt to our use case. Basically map/location related features are hard and often costly, I expect companies to either avoid them completely or bite the bullet and go full in.
alexalx666 4y ago
b2c maps is probably one of the worst niches out there, so much tiling so little $
iamthepieman 4y ago
You're right in a narrow sense but wrong in a broad one. "It’s always more work to work with a company to get the last mile of the custom use case… than it would have been to just do it yourself." This is true if all you need is a out of the box basemap with "data layers" Many companies need to process data in real time or at least nightly to get it into a format that has all the information they need usually cross referenced and enhanced with multiple related data sources. These can be related via a primary key and simple or related via a simple or complex spatial relationship or spatial plus primary key relationships. This will require custom ETL pipelines that a utility company, for instance, doesn't have the in house expertise to create and maintain. This also assumes you have the supporting elements already in place. Utilities often need to host data themselves for security or legacy reasons so they can't just use a cloud service. There are usually tools built on top of the data that need to be updated. A new geospatial system usually involves a lot more than just a new data layer. If that's all you need, then maybe these companies like felt are a good solution.
- dmix 4y ago
  These are all interesting and well informed comments but am I wrong in thinking they seem to be unrelated to the Felt product? Felt seems to be primarily a visual map annotation tool ala building visualizations. I doubt the data part would need to be that complex and custom. It could be a generic 'view' layer providing just the top layer and leave the data sources wide open and flexible but for the current offering it makes sense it's building off a 'library' of sources. Although every B2B product will have customers who demand startups be their personal software consultants. That doesn't always translate into a repeatable product.

tony_cannistra 4y ago

I think you're thinking of this Joe Morrison substack post: https://joemorrison.substack.com/p/nobody-wants-your-fancy-algorithm https://joemorrison.substack.com/p/nobody-wants-your-fancy-a... hn post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31074177 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31074177

aguacaterojo 4y ago

I build a product in this space and our traction is pretty good because we capture the data as well & follow customers with lots of infrastructure way down that very long last mile. We put in as much work into a handful of last mile solutions (that do scale quite well) as we do to our generic more generic Felt like base layer - admittedly Felt is much more polished than ours, but yeah we don't have a lot of traction on that self-service lightweight easy to use online GIS model.

makeitdouble 4y ago

Yes. In my own experience, either the product needed very little map features, and it didn't warrant paying in full just for that (I remember even live Google Maps integration being dismissed as "too costly" and moving to pre-rendered optimized maps). Either we needed a lot more maps, and having full access to the underlying data made more sense to limit computational overhead and better adapt to our use case. Basically map/location related features are hard and often costly, I expect companies to either avoid them completely or bite the bullet and go full in.

alexalx666 4y ago

b2c maps is probably one of the worst niches out there, so much tiling so little $

iamthepieman 4y ago

You're right in a narrow sense but wrong in a broad one. "It’s always more work to work with a company to get the last mile of the custom use case… than it would have been to just do it yourself." This is true if all you need is a out of the box basemap with "data layers" Many companies need to process data in real time or at least nightly to get it into a format that has all the information they need usually cross referenced and enhanced with multiple related data sources. These can be related via a primary key and simple or related via a simple or complex spatial relationship or spatial plus primary key relationships. This will require custom ETL pipelines that a utility company, for instance, doesn't have the in house expertise to create and maintain. This also assumes you have the supporting elements already in place. Utilities often need to host data themselves for security or legacy reasons so they can't just use a cloud service. There are usually tools built on top of the data that need to be updated. A new geospatial system usually involves a lot more than just a new data layer. If that's all you need, then maybe these companies like felt are a good solution.

dmix 4y ago
These are all interesting and well informed comments but am I wrong in thinking they seem to be unrelated to the Felt product? Felt seems to be primarily a visual map annotation tool ala building visualizations. I doubt the data part would need to be that complex and custom. It could be a generic 'view' layer providing just the top layer and leave the data sources wide open and flexible but for the current offering it makes sense it's building off a 'library' of sources. Although every B2B product will have customers who demand startups be their personal software consultants. That doesn't always translate into a repeatable product.