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I get telling people that you are comfortable being contacted whenever. That's your choice/life. But if I was working for you I would not like this part: > un

I get telling people that you are comfortable being contacted whenever. That's your choice/life. But if I was working for you I would not like this part: > unless the message is directly talking about a production outage in which case i'll be explicit about that because that means I have to keep notifications on and triage them even though the whole point is "I'm not going to respond outside work hours when my notifications are off / dnd is on."

jws 4y ago
This is a frequent disconnect. It really depends on the scale of the business. In some large ones, there is always a person working to handle “must be fixed now” problems. If you are off shift, then it is the person on shift’s task. In smaller operations with 24 hour operation, and infrequent “must be fixed now” problems, there will be workers whose job includes being on call. Sometimes the on call duty rotates, sometimes it does not. So if you are from a land of large companies, it may seem insane for your employer to ask something of you outside your shift. Likewise, when you are a little guy scrambling to grow, getting out of bed once in a while and handling a problem to preserve that growth is your best option. In the situation in this post, I would hope that the critical “get up and fix this” messages come through a different system, or have a way to cut through a “do not disturb” so the employees can mute the mundane messages. It sounds like you are in the first group. My company didn’t staff 24 hours, but used to pay people extra when they were the “get up and handle this” person. The size of the pay, and the frequency of the events was tuned so there was always a willing pool of people queueing to be the pager carrier.
- judge2020 4y ago
  > but used to pay people extra when they were the “get up and handle this” person. When they were the person on-call, or only when they actually responded to an outage? Unless outages are really that infrequent, it pays to set clear boundaries on when and who is supposed to be available for an outage, and the cost of a dedicated solution like Pagerduty (or Grafana OnCall) is negligible.
  - jws 4y ago
    They were salaried engineers paid to carry, not for the calls. The people carrying were capable of initiating remedial action and of knowing which engineer to call if it really needed midnight engineering. We outsourced the simple triage by having pagers and the customer’s level 1 and level 2 teams had instructions for which pager to call.
  - WastingMyTime89 4y ago
    It’s normal and expected to get paid to be on call even if you don’t have to get up. You have to schedule your life around the fact you might be interrupted. That’s worth money.
    - judge2020 4y ago
      As said in the reply from 10 hours ago, these were alaried engineers "paid to carry", so you're right, but it's not hard to imagine a company having an on-call rotation for such pager without any extra pay.
      - WastingMyTime89 4y ago
        > it's not hard to imagine a company having an on-call rotation for such pager without any extra pay. I imagine it’s possible but that seems like a terrible idea. Making the compensation for being on-call obvious seems better for everyone involved. At least the one who might have to get up on Christmas know exactly what they are getting out of it and that no one is taking advantage of them in the rotation.
- workingon 4y ago
  That’s not their point. Their point is they have to get your useless notifications at 3 am and check them even when they aren’t urgent because you can’t know which is which until you read it. Stop texting people at 3 am unless it is urgent.
  - philsnow 4y ago
    > In the situation in this post, I would hope that the critical “get up and fix this” messages come through a different system If PagerDuty goes "ding" at 3am, it's probably best to take a look. If Slack goes "ding" at 3am, maybe you forgot to turn off notifications or something, but by no means do you need to even read the notification.
AdamJacobMuller 4y ago
> I have to keep notifications on and triage them Nope. Read the whole comment, i address that :) Some people said "fine, then I'm turning off notifications" and I'm fine with that, if I have an alternate method of contact for the (very rare) production outages.
- texaslonghorn5 4y ago
  Understood. The expectations of your job/team (emergencies etc) are probably just different from what I'm used to. Seems like a good system for your team so I'm glad it works for you.
  - AdamJacobMuller 4y ago
    It was not easily understood or developed. My approach to many of these things is a direct result of me doing it very badly at some point and having to deal with the consequences of it.
- steveBK123 4y ago
  I hate to say email, but I feel like the venue for not time sensitive messages is.. email. I had this dynamic at my last gig with very pushy users, spamming of @here/@channel, and a boss working weird hours. I found no solution other than disabling all notifications for slack. Still, when I would wake up & quickly scan through slack to make sure there were no open fires to login & help with, I would invariably have to dig through commingled fires & "just sending this now cuz I'm online" threads. My next solution became that I just stopped even checking slack at all in the morning until I was either in-office, or ready to login while remote. Otherwise I found myself stewing about some annoying but non-urgent messages that I had exposed myself to. Most people would prefer to get 1 properly thought out email than to wake up to a series of 5-10 slack messages or slack wall of text. If I want to go back to an email, I can leave the individual message unread. A slack message I end up with a red dot next to my bosses name for an unread message (and obscures any more messages that have come since) OR use the "remind me" feature to them get a red dot popping up next to my bosses name in an hour to make me jump thinking my boss has some new urgent thing to ask me. We've invented a pretty good async non-urgent message medium, and yet forgotten how to use it. I think all of these super clever DM strategies are self defeating.

jws 4y ago

This is a frequent disconnect. It really depends on the scale of the business. In some large ones, there is always a person working to handle “must be fixed now” problems. If you are off shift, then it is the person on shift’s task. In smaller operations with 24 hour operation, and infrequent “must be fixed now” problems, there will be workers whose job includes being on call. Sometimes the on call duty rotates, sometimes it does not. So if you are from a land of large companies, it may seem insane for your employer to ask something of you outside your shift. Likewise, when you are a little guy scrambling to grow, getting out of bed once in a while and handling a problem to preserve that growth is your best option. In the situation in this post, I would hope that the critical “get up and fix this” messages come through a different system, or have a way to cut through a “do not disturb” so the employees can mute the mundane messages. It sounds like you are in the first group. My company didn’t staff 24 hours, but used to pay people extra when they were the “get up and handle this” person. The size of the pay, and the frequency of the events was tuned so there was always a willing pool of people queueing to be the pager carrier.

judge2020 4y ago
> but used to pay people extra when they were the “get up and handle this” person. When they were the person on-call, or only when they actually responded to an outage? Unless outages are really that infrequent, it pays to set clear boundaries on when and who is supposed to be available for an outage, and the cost of a dedicated solution like Pagerduty (or Grafana OnCall) is negligible.
- jws 4y ago
  They were salaried engineers paid to carry, not for the calls. The people carrying were capable of initiating remedial action and of knowing which engineer to call if it really needed midnight engineering. We outsourced the simple triage by having pagers and the customer’s level 1 and level 2 teams had instructions for which pager to call.
- WastingMyTime89 4y ago
  It’s normal and expected to get paid to be on call even if you don’t have to get up. You have to schedule your life around the fact you might be interrupted. That’s worth money.
  - judge2020 4y ago
    As said in the reply from 10 hours ago, these were alaried engineers "paid to carry", so you're right, but it's not hard to imagine a company having an on-call rotation for such pager without any extra pay.
    - WastingMyTime89 4y ago
      > it's not hard to imagine a company having an on-call rotation for such pager without any extra pay. I imagine it’s possible but that seems like a terrible idea. Making the compensation for being on-call obvious seems better for everyone involved. At least the one who might have to get up on Christmas know exactly what they are getting out of it and that no one is taking advantage of them in the rotation.
workingon 4y ago
That’s not their point. Their point is they have to get your useless notifications at 3 am and check them even when they aren’t urgent because you can’t know which is which until you read it. Stop texting people at 3 am unless it is urgent.
- philsnow 4y ago
  > In the situation in this post, I would hope that the critical “get up and fix this” messages come through a different system If PagerDuty goes "ding" at 3am, it's probably best to take a look. If Slack goes "ding" at 3am, maybe you forgot to turn off notifications or something, but by no means do you need to even read the notification.

AdamJacobMuller 4y ago

> I have to keep notifications on and triage them Nope. Read the whole comment, i address that :) Some people said "fine, then I'm turning off notifications" and I'm fine with that, if I have an alternate method of contact for the (very rare) production outages.

texaslonghorn5 4y ago
Understood. The expectations of your job/team (emergencies etc) are probably just different from what I'm used to. Seems like a good system for your team so I'm glad it works for you.
- AdamJacobMuller 4y ago
  It was not easily understood or developed. My approach to many of these things is a direct result of me doing it very badly at some point and having to deal with the consequences of it.
steveBK123 4y ago
I hate to say email, but I feel like the venue for not time sensitive messages is.. email. I had this dynamic at my last gig with very pushy users, spamming of @here/@channel, and a boss working weird hours. I found no solution other than disabling all notifications for slack. Still, when I would wake up & quickly scan through slack to make sure there were no open fires to login & help with, I would invariably have to dig through commingled fires & "just sending this now cuz I'm online" threads. My next solution became that I just stopped even checking slack at all in the morning until I was either in-office, or ready to login while remote. Otherwise I found myself stewing about some annoying but non-urgent messages that I had exposed myself to. Most people would prefer to get 1 properly thought out email than to wake up to a series of 5-10 slack messages or slack wall of text. If I want to go back to an email, I can leave the individual message unread. A slack message I end up with a red dot next to my bosses name for an unread message (and obscures any more messages that have come since) OR use the "remind me" feature to them get a red dot popping up next to my bosses name in an hour to make me jump thinking my boss has some new urgent thing to ask me. We've invented a pretty good async non-urgent message medium, and yet forgotten how to use it. I think all of these super clever DM strategies are self defeating.