5 ms·

> Hate to break it to you but Trump lost the popular vote You are aware that the competition is for the most electoral college seats. I am fairly certain that

> Hate to break it to you but Trump lost the popular vote You are aware that the competition is for the most electoral college seats. I am fairly certain that the Democrats were aware of this for the election as well. Yet armed with this knowledege they still lost to the worst run campaign in a century fronted by an actual clown. > Is your electoral system fair if it is this gerrymandered? I mean, the people elected to office litterally promised to gerrymander. If the people elect someone who brings in proportional representation will you have a problem with that? > Furthermore, most states and districts are “safe” for one of the two main parties. Hang on, those "safe" districts are "safe" because an overwhelming majority of people vote for the party that wins... That is democracy! Are you arguing for or against democracy? > No party that openly tries to pack a court against the will of the people should get a single vote from anyone who cares about freedom Litteral campaign promise, and people voted for it in numbers, it is the will of the people. > It is not hyperbolic to warn Americans of the extreme danger their democracy is in The problem is democracy itself. People are voting for shitty hacky demi-gods selling them a used car that runs on snake oil. Every side of every agenda has become infected with this horrible disease, but what is happening is the logical conclusion of what happens when you combine democracy with an erosion of education. It didnt start this year or with trump etc. It has been happening for decades. The population is now so poorly equiped to navigate the most basic of tasks that a foreign power can swing an election by spending $100,000 on some facebook ads.

skinnymuch 4y ago
You missed the point of this entire thread. The whole point is fairness and freedom. Not about the basic obvious truth that Trump won the electoral college. That’s a pointless factoid that everyone is already agreeing with. The rest of the comment appears to be along similar lines of logic.
- shapefrog 4y ago
  > free and fair elections, are being turned down this year What changed this year? The most commone argument for the election not being free and fair here is "electoral college vs popular vote". Some have even backed up the very point by showing that this situation has been persistent for the last 20 years, so ... what changed this year? Did they add electoral college votes to red states or something? Free and fair elections - personally I think of elections not being free and fair someone standing next to you as you vote saying vote for vlad or we will kill your whole familiy or votes being thrown in the bin. As far as I am aware none of that is happening. Its pretty bad faith to say Republicans claiming electoral fraud is the Big Lie but when Dems say its Not a Free and Fair Election that it is an irrefutable evidence and vice versa. Simultaneously holding the belief that the elctions are Not Free and Fair while claiming that they are indeed Free and Fair depending upon which party is claiming it is rank hypocracy at best.
  - skinnymuch 4y ago
    Why does it matter if something changed? If they weren’t free and fair in previous years, that can still make them not free and fair this year. > …not being free and fair…vote for vlad…or we will kill your whole familiy or votes being thrown in the bin… You gave an extremely specific coercive tactic and basic corruption. How does it follow if neither happening, then, what, things are fine? This is reminiscent of the neoliberal moderate to conservative status-quo-seeking intellectual and incredibly lazy common talking point. A point echoed by Bill Maher to Jordan Peterson to Bill Gates. “Things aren’t so bad. So be okay with that.” The classic Stephen Pinker elitist “optimism”. So a point made since forever. > Its pretty bad faith…when Dems say its Not a Free and Fair Election that it is an irrefutable evidence… If Dems say they are ‘Free and Fair’ with anything, they are liars, as usual. I am going much farther than you in my denigration of the Dems. What’s the point of this paragraph being written to me?
mrcartmeneses 4y ago
I think what's worth thinking about is whether you DO actually have enough democracy. Are first-past-the-post voting systems able to accurately represent the diverse views of a nation like America? I'd argue that they do not and that the problems you have outlined could be solved with MORE democracy rather than less. If one goes back and listens to Trump speeches from the 2016 race he actually sounded a lot like a bonkers version of Bernie Sanders in terms of the way he tried to appeal to the economic distress of many potential voters. If there was a more representative voting system – such as that in Germany – you might end up with policies that Americans actually want by having multiple parties that can represent all Americans. A politician is only as good as your ability to fire them. You can't fire yours very easily. And if you think democracy is the problem, why not take a look at the difference between two oil-rich nations, Norway and Libya, or two neighbours, North and South Korea.

skinnymuch 4y ago

You missed the point of this entire thread. The whole point is fairness and freedom. Not about the basic obvious truth that Trump won the electoral college. That’s a pointless factoid that everyone is already agreeing with. The rest of the comment appears to be along similar lines of logic.

shapefrog 4y ago
> free and fair elections, are being turned down this year What changed this year? The most commone argument for the election not being free and fair here is "electoral college vs popular vote". Some have even backed up the very point by showing that this situation has been persistent for the last 20 years, so ... what changed this year? Did they add electoral college votes to red states or something? Free and fair elections - personally I think of elections not being free and fair someone standing next to you as you vote saying vote for vlad or we will kill your whole familiy or votes being thrown in the bin. As far as I am aware none of that is happening. Its pretty bad faith to say Republicans claiming electoral fraud is the Big Lie but when Dems say its Not a Free and Fair Election that it is an irrefutable evidence and vice versa. Simultaneously holding the belief that the elctions are Not Free and Fair while claiming that they are indeed Free and Fair depending upon which party is claiming it is rank hypocracy at best.
- skinnymuch 4y ago
  Why does it matter if something changed? If they weren’t free and fair in previous years, that can still make them not free and fair this year. > …not being free and fair…vote for vlad…or we will kill your whole familiy or votes being thrown in the bin… You gave an extremely specific coercive tactic and basic corruption. How does it follow if neither happening, then, what, things are fine? This is reminiscent of the neoliberal moderate to conservative status-quo-seeking intellectual and incredibly lazy common talking point. A point echoed by Bill Maher to Jordan Peterson to Bill Gates. “Things aren’t so bad. So be okay with that.” The classic Stephen Pinker elitist “optimism”. So a point made since forever. > Its pretty bad faith…when Dems say its Not a Free and Fair Election that it is an irrefutable evidence… If Dems say they are ‘Free and Fair’ with anything, they are liars, as usual. I am going much farther than you in my denigration of the Dems. What’s the point of this paragraph being written to me?

mrcartmeneses 4y ago

I think what's worth thinking about is whether you DO actually have enough democracy. Are first-past-the-post voting systems able to accurately represent the diverse views of a nation like America? I'd argue that they do not and that the problems you have outlined could be solved with MORE democracy rather than less. If one goes back and listens to Trump speeches from the 2016 race he actually sounded a lot like a bonkers version of Bernie Sanders in terms of the way he tried to appeal to the economic distress of many potential voters. If there was a more representative voting system – such as that in Germany – you might end up with policies that Americans actually want by having multiple parties that can represent all Americans. A politician is only as good as your ability to fire them. You can't fire yours very easily. And if you think democracy is the problem, why not take a look at the difference between two oil-rich nations, Norway and Libya, or two neighbours, North and South Korea.