11 ms·

Lessons from Dungeons and Dragons about storytelling (2013)

121 points by ohjeez 4y ago

boberoni 4y ago
> #6: Intimacy creates villainy. This is something that comes up again and again in marketing and persuasion, although I still do not fully understand the psychology behind it. It is often more effective to tell the intimate story of an individual suffering with X, compared to providing accurate data on the impact of X. Replace X with disease, climate change, and so on. If you have the choice between presenting quantitative data or telling an emotional story, the emotional story appeals more effectively with a majority of people. There are only a few cases where people try to be strictly rational and are only convinced by data and statistics.
- herodoturtle 4y ago
  Interesting point. I suspect it’s because intimacy speaks to fear, whereas data speaks to reason. And in terms of our historic evolution as living beings, fear came long before reason - so it’s more deeply rooted in our psyche. That said, this is just my hunch. I hope some biologists / neuroscientists here can shed more light on this.
  - darkerside 4y ago
    I think it's because, while we've gotten much better over time, we humans are still not as effective at dealing with abstractions as the tangible. 100 people dying is a tragedy, but 1 person close to be dying is something else altogether. We can't possibly comprehend the multiple permutations of that "something else" playing out x100, multiplied by all the people who are close to them. It's simply incalculable.
- atoav 4y ago
  If I had to guess about why this works it is that we as human beings learn a great deal by observing others. This does not only work when others succeed, but also when they suffer. More than an abstract numbers (which only some of us can translate into concrete imaginations) the observation about someone elses fate allows is to simulate what this would mean if it happened to us. This is of course an unpleasant thought. What if my kid got cancer? Or any other of the horrible things that one reads about happening to kids? The reaction to this these thoughts can go one of many ways, with the two extremes being an emphatic "we need to stop this from ever happening again, even if we need to change our way of life" and —on the other side— a "this is never going to happen to me, it only happens to people who deserve it somehow". So we (at least most of us) are capable of telling when someone's suffering comes from the outside, from something that could hit us too. After all most societies developed at least some way to collectively fight fires or deal with other catastrophes often by institutionalizing and financing the people who do it. This is deeply what being a society is a about: aknowledging that some things that happen are better to be dealt with collectively than individually, either because of their scale, or because of their stochastic nature (it only hits few, but it hits them hard). I think however when it comes to storytelling it is key to do both: Tell the individual story, and show that stories like these are not rare (this takes away the "it will never happen to me"-defense). The indivdiual fate influences society and society influences the individual fate.
SunlightEdge 4y ago
"The best heroic journey is not the story of an incredible person doing incredible things. It is the story of a flawed, ordinary person who—when called upon—rises to an incredible challenge and finds within themselves something truly extraordinary." This is the main reason I don't like superhero films. There is no sense of danger or vulnerability. It's just people in fancy jumpsuits doing acrobats around explosions till they win the day. I prefer main characters dying / at severe risk of dying. Give me tragedy. Show me vulnerable people who grow and become stronger.
- poulpy123 4y ago
  I have 3 problems with comics books super heroes: - their flashy costumes - their boringness - the inconsistency in their powers that one day is godlike and the next morning is mundane
- moritonal 4y ago
  Trying to think of examples: A Quiet Place, Day after Tomorrow, Lord of the Rings.
  - ascar 4y ago
    Even Harry Potter matches his description. Harry's vulnerability, courage and personal growth even though the odds are stacked against him is a big part of what made it so good. It's actually a very common pattern. Might even be Shonen manga 101.
    - oneoff786 4y ago
      Though it’s odd that one of the first things to happen is to establish that he was rich, famous, and popular. Not that this mattered too much along the way.
      - krapp 4y ago
        The "chosen one" archetype in a nutshell. Luke Skywalker learns he's part of a royal bloodline, a child of prophecy and a super-powerful space wizard. One of the (few) things I respect the sequel trilogy for was trying to deconstruct this, showing how disillusioned Luke then became with his legendary in-universe celebrity status.
tcbawo 4y ago
I highly recommend this book by writer and academic Joseph Campbell: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Fac... (1949). It’s a fascinating study of comparative mythology from cultures around the world. Joseph Campbell died in 1987, but some of his recorded lectures are available online, which I also recommend.
- fractallyte 4y ago
  And these books cover the other half of humanity that Joseph Campbell somehow missed: The Heroine with 1001 Faces, by Maria Tatar Women Who Run With the Wolves: Myths and Stories of the Wild Woman Archetype, by Clarissa Pinkola Estes If Women Rose Rooted: A Life-Changing Journey to Authenticity and Belonging, by Sharon Blackie
kayodelycaon 4y ago
I absolutely love D&D, but it's important to consider who your players are. This is dangerous advice: > Stories can become a way of learning how to face situations we can't control, grapple with loss, and become resilient. This is true of books, but you can put a book down and walk away. D&D has the potential for social and emotion investment that is far more difficult to walk away from. Your players need to know what kind of game you are running and aware of what bad things are possible. And you need to be open to ret-conning mistakes that ruined the game for someone because of mis-matched expectations in this regard. An example from my experiences: I ended up joining late in an online game that had vampires. I was completely unaware they could take over player characters using mind control. As a result, I got blindsided in the middle of a very emotional point in combat. My character's agency was completely removed by a failed saving throw. There was no recourse, no way out. The rest of the party knew vampires were dangerous, but no one explicitly told me why. The DM forgot I didn't know what everyone else did. This was more than just a dick move for me because I had some past traumatic events where the same thing happened to me. Most of the DMs I've encountered were hardliners when it came to rules and events. They'd rather kick a player than ret-con anything. Since I was new to the group, I was worried I'd never be invited to play with them again if I dropped out or said anything. Fortunately in the next session, the DM realized something had happened and privately asked why I wasn't engaged as much as I was. Ret-conned who got mind-controlled to a player who would have fun with it.
- AlwaysRock 4y ago
  But... isnt this the exact point of that line? You went into a situation you couldnt control and grappled with the issue. It sounds like you wanted pre warning that x could happen in the game which is fair but baring some NSFW stuff it's it assumed that anything can happen in a typical dnd game? You failed a roll. It impacted the story. That is the game. I feel like I'm missing something. The become resilient part feels like it didnt happen because the DM ret conned the moment. I'm not saying you would have been stronger if not for the ret conning but you would have likely been less impacted by the same event happening in a future dnd game. Even with the ret con you're likely to be less impacted by the same event.
  - 4y ago
stakkur 4y ago
I’ve been playing DnD/RPGs off and on since 1980. If there’s one thing I’ve learned, it’s that the most important part of gaming has always been camaraderie and shared experiences; ‘storytelling’ hasn’t even been in the top three, as nice to have as stories are. DnD does nothing novel with storytelling; in fact, it just borrows ideas and tropes from fiction and history.

121 points by ohjeez 4y ago

> #6: Intimacy creates villainy. This is something that comes up again and again in marketing and persuasion, although I still do not fully understand the psychology behind it. It is often more effective to tell the intimate story of an individual suffering with X, compared to providing accurate data on the impact of X. Replace X with disease, climate change, and so on. If you have the choice between presenting quantitative data or telling an emotional story, the emotional story appeals more effectively with a majority of people. There are only a few cases where people try to be strictly rational and are only convinced by data and statistics.

herodoturtle 4y ago
Interesting point. I suspect it’s because intimacy speaks to fear, whereas data speaks to reason. And in terms of our historic evolution as living beings, fear came long before reason - so it’s more deeply rooted in our psyche. That said, this is just my hunch. I hope some biologists / neuroscientists here can shed more light on this.
- darkerside 4y ago
  I think it's because, while we've gotten much better over time, we humans are still not as effective at dealing with abstractions as the tangible. 100 people dying is a tragedy, but 1 person close to be dying is something else altogether. We can't possibly comprehend the multiple permutations of that "something else" playing out x100, multiplied by all the people who are close to them. It's simply incalculable.
atoav 4y ago
If I had to guess about why this works it is that we as human beings learn a great deal by observing others. This does not only work when others succeed, but also when they suffer. More than an abstract numbers (which only some of us can translate into concrete imaginations) the observation about someone elses fate allows is to simulate what this would mean if it happened to us. This is of course an unpleasant thought. What if my kid got cancer? Or any other of the horrible things that one reads about happening to kids? The reaction to this these thoughts can go one of many ways, with the two extremes being an emphatic "we need to stop this from ever happening again, even if we need to change our way of life" and —on the other side— a "this is never going to happen to me, it only happens to people who deserve it somehow". So we (at least most of us) are capable of telling when someone's suffering comes from the outside, from something that could hit us too. After all most societies developed at least some way to collectively fight fires or deal with other catastrophes often by institutionalizing and financing the people who do it. This is deeply what being a society is a about: aknowledging that some things that happen are better to be dealt with collectively than individually, either because of their scale, or because of their stochastic nature (it only hits few, but it hits them hard). I think however when it comes to storytelling it is key to do both: Tell the individual story, and show that stories like these are not rare (this takes away the "it will never happen to me"-defense). The indivdiual fate influences society and society influences the individual fate.

SunlightEdge 4y ago

"The best heroic journey is not the story of an incredible person doing incredible things. It is the story of a flawed, ordinary person who—when called upon—rises to an incredible challenge and finds within themselves something truly extraordinary." This is the main reason I don't like superhero films. There is no sense of danger or vulnerability. It's just people in fancy jumpsuits doing acrobats around explosions till they win the day. I prefer main characters dying / at severe risk of dying. Give me tragedy. Show me vulnerable people who grow and become stronger.

poulpy123 4y ago
I have 3 problems with comics books super heroes: - their flashy costumes - their boringness - the inconsistency in their powers that one day is godlike and the next morning is mundane
moritonal 4y ago
Trying to think of examples: A Quiet Place, Day after Tomorrow, Lord of the Rings.
- ascar 4y ago
  Even Harry Potter matches his description. Harry's vulnerability, courage and personal growth even though the odds are stacked against him is a big part of what made it so good. It's actually a very common pattern. Might even be Shonen manga 101.
  - oneoff786 4y ago
    Though it’s odd that one of the first things to happen is to establish that he was rich, famous, and popular. Not that this mattered too much along the way.
    - krapp 4y ago
      The "chosen one" archetype in a nutshell. Luke Skywalker learns he's part of a royal bloodline, a child of prophecy and a super-powerful space wizard. One of the (few) things I respect the sequel trilogy for was trying to deconstruct this, showing how disillusioned Luke then became with his legendary in-universe celebrity status.

tcbawo 4y ago

I highly recommend this book by writer and academic Joseph Campbell: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Fac... (1949). It’s a fascinating study of comparative mythology from cultures around the world. Joseph Campbell died in 1987, but some of his recorded lectures are available online, which I also recommend.

fractallyte 4y ago
And these books cover the other half of humanity that Joseph Campbell somehow missed: The Heroine with 1001 Faces, by Maria Tatar Women Who Run With the Wolves: Myths and Stories of the Wild Woman Archetype, by Clarissa Pinkola Estes If Women Rose Rooted: A Life-Changing Journey to Authenticity and Belonging, by Sharon Blackie

kayodelycaon 4y ago

I absolutely love D&D, but it's important to consider who your players are. This is dangerous advice: > Stories can become a way of learning how to face situations we can't control, grapple with loss, and become resilient. This is true of books, but you can put a book down and walk away. D&D has the potential for social and emotion investment that is far more difficult to walk away from. Your players need to know what kind of game you are running and aware of what bad things are possible. And you need to be open to ret-conning mistakes that ruined the game for someone because of mis-matched expectations in this regard. An example from my experiences: I ended up joining late in an online game that had vampires. I was completely unaware they could take over player characters using mind control. As a result, I got blindsided in the middle of a very emotional point in combat. My character's agency was completely removed by a failed saving throw. There was no recourse, no way out. The rest of the party knew vampires were dangerous, but no one explicitly told me why. The DM forgot I didn't know what everyone else did. This was more than just a dick move for me because I had some past traumatic events where the same thing happened to me. Most of the DMs I've encountered were hardliners when it came to rules and events. They'd rather kick a player than ret-con anything. Since I was new to the group, I was worried I'd never be invited to play with them again if I dropped out or said anything. Fortunately in the next session, the DM realized something had happened and privately asked why I wasn't engaged as much as I was. Ret-conned who got mind-controlled to a player who would have fun with it.

AlwaysRock 4y ago
But... isnt this the exact point of that line? You went into a situation you couldnt control and grappled with the issue. It sounds like you wanted pre warning that x could happen in the game which is fair but baring some NSFW stuff it's it assumed that anything can happen in a typical dnd game? You failed a roll. It impacted the story. That is the game. I feel like I'm missing something. The become resilient part feels like it didnt happen because the DM ret conned the moment. I'm not saying you would have been stronger if not for the ret conning but you would have likely been less impacted by the same event happening in a future dnd game. Even with the ret con you're likely to be less impacted by the same event.
- 4y ago

stakkur 4y ago

I’ve been playing DnD/RPGs off and on since 1980. If there’s one thing I’ve learned, it’s that the most important part of gaming has always been camaraderie and shared experiences; ‘storytelling’ hasn’t even been in the top three, as nice to have as stories are. DnD does nothing novel with storytelling; in fact, it just borrows ideas and tropes from fiction and history.